Can skinny be fat?

You're going to hate this.

Dr. Romero-Corral and colleagues from the Mayo Clinic presented an analysis of the National Institutes of Health-funded National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES-3) at the recent American College of Cardiology meetings. (Science Daily also has some coverage on this report.)

Their analysis identified 2127 adults from the NHANES database who had normal body-mass indexes (BMI) between 18.5 and 24.9 units), average age 41 years old. When broken down by percent body fat (measured with bioimpedance, meaning a small electrical current is passed through the body, much like what the store-bought Tanita devices do), with normal-weight obesity defined as >20% body fat in males, >30% body fat in females, 55% of participants met criteria for designation as normal-weight obesity.

Compared to people with similar BMI's but who fell below these body fat percentage cut-offs, the normal-weight obese men had increased ratios of Apo B to Apo A1; were much more likely to have increased blood sugars or be diabetic; have higher C-reactive protein (CRP); were several-fold more likely to meet other criteria for diagnosis of metabolic syndrome; had lower HDL cholesterols; and had higher blood pressure. Women with normal-weight obesity were four-fold more likely to have coronary disease.

While preliminary, this suggests that a substantial number of people with apparently favorable body weights and BMIs are, in actuality, overweight when judged by metabolic parameters. This then probably leads to increased risk for heart disease. We can then fairly readily extrapolate the argument that a reduction in weight to even lower BMIs likely reduces or corrects these patterns.

This argument is similar to that proposed by several others, arguing that BMI is a flawed measure, since it does not incorporate muscle mass or skeletal factors ("big- or small-boned"). Instead, they have argued that waist circumference is preferable.

The normal-weight obesity syndrome was originally identified by Dr. Antonio de Lorenzo and colleagues at the University of Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy, and reported in Normal weight obese (NWO) women: an evaluation of a candidate new syndrome. Their studies of women with this "syndrome" have suggested that heightened measures of inflammation are present despite apparently normal body weight and BMIs. One such report, Normal-weight obese syndrome: early inflammation?, is available in full-text.

Is there a lesson to be learned for the Track Your Plaque program? I believe there is. I believe it means that, if you have any weight-sensitive parameter, such as low HDL, small LDL, high triglycerides, high CRP, high blood sugar, high blood pressure, etc., then further weight loss might be considered, even if BMI is around 25. Obviously, there is a rational limit to how far you can push this concept. (Anorexia is not good for you either.)

I find this a useful concept. It provides yet another potential strategy to pursue when the above patterns are encountered. Perhaps it's also a way to cap reliance on niacin, whose effects closely mimic that of weight loss.

Now that's a lot more preferable to more and more statin drug, isn't it?


Copyright 2008 William Davis, MD

Comments (6) -

  • Anna

    4/29/2008 5:42:00 AM |

    Very interesting.  I've been paying attention to this issue as the reports have come out the last few weeks.  As a mid-40s female with a BMI hovering around 22 (5'3.5", 125 #), despite losing about 20# 4 years ago with a LC diet, I know I am still carrying more fat on me (and in different places) than I did 15 years ago at about the same weight.  

    What about strength training to build muscle mass  and drop body fat % instead of losing weight?   I don't really want to lose any more weight and I think I have hit the limit of weight loss from carb restriction.  I don't like to restrict calories, nor do I think it is effective for me.

    I've never liked exercise for the sake of exercise, but I think it was those incredibly boring cardio routines that put me off gyms and exercise routines (plus I found it was much easier to lose and maintain weight through carb restriction than through exercise).  

    But I've been reading up on the "slow strength" routines and they seem like a very efficient way to enhance my metabolism and muscle/fat ratios, especially since my glucose metabolism is already impaired.

  • Richard A.

    4/29/2008 2:00:00 PM |

    Maybe another approach for the normal weight obese is to take up weight lifting.

  • Anonymous

    4/29/2008 3:07:00 PM |

    My brother in law liked this post.  He is a former rugby player, 6 foot, 200 plus lbs. in size.  He looks like he is chiseled out of granite with the muscles he has.  I doubt there is more than 10% body fat on him, but he tells me that for years he has been considered obese by the BMI.

  • Zute

    4/29/2008 3:46:00 PM |

    I'm curious why the association it seems most medical people leap to is that it is the obesity causing the issue rather than the obesity being yet another symptom.

    Strangely if you cut out the refined carbs, grains, sugars, excess starches, all the symptoms correct themselves.  Sure, you can do the same thing with calorie restriction but we should know from Keyes starvation experiment that that doesn't really work long term with a high carb diet.

    Is there any real evidence it is the fat causing metabolic syndrome versus the metabolic syndrome causing the fat?

  • Anonymous

    4/30/2008 3:50:00 PM |

    This article pretty much describes me.  5'8" male, about 165lbs and a BMI of 25.  I've always had a problem gaining muscle so although I look normal my body fat was about 23% and I had high triglycerides.  I bought a bowflex and have worked hard to gain some muscle.  I'm now about 21% body fat and there is some muscle gain.  I don't know if I'll ever make it to 15% body fat, but I'm trying.  BMI is pretty much a joke.

  • Anonymous

    5/1/2008 3:03:00 PM |

    BMI is a fairly crude measure.  For the majority it probably has some value.  As others have pointed out it can incorrectly identify some heavily muscled people as overweight whilst suggesting some overweight people aren't overweight.  Perhaps a better indicator of obesity is waist measurement, or the waist to hip ratio.  In particular It doesn't appear to be healthy to carry significant amounts of weight around the middle.  

    Looking at old black and white films or photographs of crowd scenes, its noticeable that most people are lean: much more so than today.  I have been struck by how lean, and healthy, many soldiers look in what must have been harrowing and stressful times.  Maybe it was the more active lifestyle and spartan lifestyles.

    I doubt you could look at many modern day crod secenes and be impressed by how lean and healthy the people looked.  Even the London marathon contained quite a high proportion of overweight participants!

    Paul

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Don't mistake marketing for truth

Don't mistake marketing for truth

We're all so inundated with marketing messages for food. Unfortunately, many people confuse the messages delivered through marketing with the truth.

For instance:

Pork: "The other white meat." Pork is a high-saturated fat food.

"Bananas: A great source of potassium." Bananas are a high glycemic index (rapid sugar release), low fiber food.

"Pretzels: A low-fat snack." A high glycemic index food made from white wheat flour. It makes you fat and skyrockets blood sugar.

Jif peanut butter: "Choosy moms choose Jif." Do they also choose hydrogenated fats?

Hi-C: Upbeat jingles like "Who put the straw in my Hi-C fruit drink, a new cool straw that wriggles and bends? Who put the straw in my Hi-C fruit drink, with Vitamin C for me and my friends? Who was that man, I'd like to shake his hand, he made my Hi-C cooler than before!" What about the 25 grams of sugar per 4 oz serving? And the high fructose corn syrup that creates an insatiable sweet tooth, raises triglycrides 30%, and exagerates pre-diabetes?


Marketing is not reliable, unbiased information. If Ford boasts that their cars are superior to GM, do you say "Well then, I need to buy a Ford?" Of course not. Take marketing for what it is: A method of persuading people to buy. It may or may not contain the truth. It's a big part of the reason Americans are the fattest people on earth and are experiencing an explosion of chronic diseases of excess.
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Is shock therapy the answer to “cure” obesity?

Is shock therapy the answer to “cure” obesity?

The next obesity “fix” may be hitting the market known as "VBLOC therapy”.  This implanted device delivers intermittent electrical "blocking signals" to the intra-abdominal vagus nerve.  According to the manufacturer, the device "reduces sensations of hunger and produces satiety leading to weight loss.”

Seems to me like another classic case of conventional healthcare proposing surgery or medications to address the obesity epidemic. Pharmacologic treatment and bariatric surgery have been offered for years to win the battle of the bulge.  As a registered dietitian, who years ago begrudgingly counseled patients prior to undergoing bariatric surgery, I have seen countless people re-gaining all (if not more) of the weight lost after the first year of surgery. Same goes for pharmalogical interventions, such as Phentermine.  Sure it worked in the short-term.  But in every single case, when the medication was stopped, as it is not FDA approved for long-term use, the weight came creeping back.

My take on the releasing a significant amount of weight does not require going under the knife.  How about this instead? Address the cause of increase hunger and appetite.  This is a crucial missing link for many undergoing surgery or using medication(s) as a “solution”.  Not addressing the cause of increased hunger and ravenous eating behaviors precipitously results in rebound weight gain.  Rather than sending an electrical pulse to a nerve in the stomach, maybe the FDA should consider a Cureality-based nutrition program that is wildly successful stimulating a “side effect” of weight loss.  Wheat elimination offers a surgery-free option that reduces hunger and insistent drive to eat every few hours, thanks to freedom from gliadin driven appetite stimulation.  Weight loss is common experience due to reduced hunger and subsequent intake. Give it a try.  What else do you have to lose, but some love handles?

--Lisa Grudzielanek, MS,RDN,CD CDE
Cureality Nutrition & Health Coach
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You probably don't take enough fish oil

You probably don't take enough fish oil

The results of the recent Heart Scan Blog survey in response to the question: MY DAILY DOSE OF EPA + DHA FROM FISH OIL IS revealed:


Zero--I don't take any
17 (7%) of respondents

Less than 1000 mg per day
24 (10%) of respondents

1000-2000 mg per day
91 (38%) of respondents

2000-3000 mg per day
44 (18%) of respondents

3000-4000 mg per day
40 (16%) of respondents

More than 4000 mg per day
20 (8%) of respondents



Based on the above results, I would say that only a minority of respondents are taking an ideal dose of omega-3 fatty acids. Nearly all of us should consider taking more.

Benefits of omega-3 fatty acids (EPA + DHA) from fish oil begin around a dose of 840 mg per day, according to the GISSI Prevenzione Trial of 1999, an 11,000-participant trial. This dose also corresponds to a quantity of omega-3s that have been shown to raise EPA + DHA blood levels and thereby reduce the notoriously high AA:EPA ratio of Americans.

But what dose is sufficient? What dose is ideal?

Well, the answer to a great degree depends on what you are taking the fish oil for. If being taken to reduce triglycerides and triglyceride-containing lipoproteins, like VLDL and the after-eating (postprandial) IDL, then a higher dose will be necessary. (Triglyceride reduction for the genetically-determined very high triglyceride level of familial hypertriglyceridemia is the FDA-approved indication for prescription Lovaza.)

If you are taking fish oil for treatment of ADHD, depression, or bipolar illness, very high doses are often necessary.

But how about maximal reduction of cardiovascular risk and for control or reversal of atherosclerotic plaque?

This conversation is still evolving. But we can learn some important lessons from three populations of the world that are vigorous consumers of fish:

--The Inuits (aka Eskimos) of Greenland and northern Canada
--The Japanese
--The Bantus of Tanzania who live along Nyasa Lake

All three indigenous populations have several-fold greater intakes of fish and omega-3 fatty acids, have higher blood levels of omega-3 fatty acids, and have enjoyed reduced cardiovascular events, reduced atherosclerotic plaque, or improvement in various surrogates of cardiovascular risk (e.g., Lp(a)).

The most recent addition to this conversation is the ERA JUMP Study, discussed in a previous Heart Scan Blog post. In ERA JUMP, despite being heavy smokers and having other markers for greater risk for heart disease, Japanese men living in Japan had markedly less carotid and coronary plaque, as compared to Caucasian men living in PIttsburgh or Hawaiian men of Japanese descent. The difference appeared to be attributable to serum levels of omega-3 fatty acids.

I believe that the trend is here is to increase the amount of omega-3 fatty acids that most of us take. In the Track Your Plaque program, we have been advocating a rock-bottom starting dose of EPA + DHA of 1200 mg per day. However, I believe that this is due for a change.

We will be increasing the minimum dose for plaque regression and control. Please attend our Webinar this evening for a full, in-depth discussion of the rationale behind this important change.

As always, let me remind you that I am not selling, nor ever have sold, fish oil supplements. If I advocate a specific dose, a higher dose, I do so based on my interpretation of the data and experience with patients, not because I am interested in selling brand X of fish oil.

Comments (17) -

  • madcappedmc

    8/20/2008 3:11:00 PM |

    You are probably right that most people should increase their omega-3 intake.  However, all of fish oil pills (and the liquid) that I see have moderate-to-high doses of vitamin E.  So your recommendation appears require supplementing with large doses of vitamin E (in addition to the fish oil); do you think this is a cause for even mild concern?

  • Sven

    8/21/2008 3:26:00 PM |

    What about all those CVD-free populations that don´t eat any fish (e.g. Masai)? Obviously fish (oil) is not necessary to be healthy.

  • anne

    8/21/2008 7:01:00 PM |

    What a range - but must remember that both fish oils omega 3 and omega 6 important herbal supplements.

  • mike V

    8/22/2008 2:42:00 PM |

    I think that it is extremely difficult to separate the benefits of one nutrient from the effects of one's overall diet and supplement regimen.
    Maintaining a low omega 6 to omega 3 ratio has been shown to be very important.
    I have taken 3 standard Sam's/Costco capsules (total EPA+DHA=900 mg) for many years,along with an overall regimen not unlike Dr Davis's recommendation.
    My guess is that an ounce of early prevention is probably worth a pound of later reversal, but perhaps I am simply in the lucky 50%.

    FWIW my HDL at the outset was in the low 30's @ age 40, now runs about 50, @ age 72. CTA scan 1 year ago: "no detectable plaque"
    My Father died of second MI @ age 76.
    Over the years most of us "preventers" have had to read the studies, and take our "shot in the dark" with our supplements.

    Dr Davis, I can't over emphasize the value and encouragement of receiving feedback from you and your patients on the frontline. Please keep up (and promulgate) this excellent work.
    MikeV

  • Peter Silverman

    8/22/2008 2:52:00 PM |

    Is there a reason to eat those omega 3 eggs if you think you're getting enough 3 from fish oil?

  • Kayaman

    8/23/2008 11:31:00 AM |

    Since omega-3 fats are polyunsaturated that renders them prone to peroxidation.  Evidence indicates fishoil improves lipid profile, but at what cost?

  • Anonymous

    8/25/2008 6:32:00 PM |

    I hope that you (Dr Davis) realize that fish oil decreases clotting time. At what point does that come into play as being an undesirable side effect? If it takes longer than 5 or 10 minutes to stop a cut from bleeding, is that too long? What about occult internal bleeding or hemorrhagic stroke? I think this needs to be addressed. In addition many people take aspirin, more than the 81 mgs that is recommended. NSAIDS affect clotting, Vitamin E in larger doses can affect clotting, some herbs affect clotting. While I understand that the cardiovascular effects are desirable, I question the clotting issue.

  • Anna

    8/26/2008 5:15:00 PM |

    I can see why fish oil might seem beneficial to folks who eat the SAD, in a similar way the epi studies indicate eating whole grains trumps refined grains (I think the evidence indicates that no grain is better whole grain).  Fish oils make a crummy standard diet less damaging, so it seems like a great idea.  

    But what about if one avoids industrial foods and the sources of omega 6 PUFA in the first place?  Why supplement with omega 3 if there is no need to offset the omega 6 FAs?  Why purposely raise intake of intake any unstable PUFAs, including omega 3s (fish oil).

    There are considerable concerns about PUFAs consumption in general, particularly cancer.  

    I have greatly reduced or eliminated the most common sources of omega 6 FA (minimal or no grain,  industrial veg oils, or grain-fed meat/dairy/poultry).  Instead, I stick to pastured animal foods and traditional fats that are predominately naturally saturated or monosaturated (unless the PUFAs are in the original intact food, such as nuts, fish, etc.).  

    So if I supplement with fish oil omega 3s (or any concentrated non-food source), I could actually be overloading on omega 3 PUFA intake in relationship to my low omega 6 intake.  

    I've been mulling this over for some time, trying to reconcile the differences in views.  Then Peter's post on Hyperlipid showed up today.  Could this be the interpretation that explains my reluctance on the fish oil supplementation?

    http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/08/age-rage-and-ale-vldl-degradation-and_25.html

    Dr. Davis, I know you are busy, and I'm not trying to create waves, but since you do advocate fish oil supplementation, I wonder if you can review Peter's post and explain if you have a different interpretation.  

    On the fish oil issue, I just haven't been able to decide my best course of action, other than holding off on supplementation until I am more confidently sure of my understanding of what more omega 3 might or might not do for me and my family (not on the SAD).

  • Sven

    8/27/2008 8:10:00 AM |

    A recent review published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition by Dariush Mozaffarian of Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School concluded that omega-3 fish oil fatty acids EPA and DHA help prevent heart disease, but that the benefits only extent to taking 250 mg/day. This conclusion was based on the convergence of data from prospective cohort studies and randomized clinical trials.

    This is from Chris Masterjohn´s newsletter.

  • Anna

    8/28/2008 12:05:00 AM |

    Yes, I've been reading Chris Masterjohn's interpretations of the PUFA and cholesterol literature, too (among others).  Gotta love the access the web gives us, eh?  Though it does give us a lot to ponder...still, I feel better about sifting through some contradictory ideas or ones that don't quite fit the puzzle vs. just accepting the conventional info spooned out to me and burying my head in the sand, like too many do.

  • Dr. B G

    8/30/2008 3:51:00 PM |

    Sven,

    Mozzafarian is misinformed about a lot of things -- he wrote a letter once advising against EBT heartscans (low rad, no dyes, low maintenance) for the general population (he's kinda right -- health insurance may not be able to 'afford' an EBT for 'everyone' however on the flip side, if prevention of expensive procedures and hospitalizations (and optimal health) were goals of health insurance, then eventually they cannot NOT afford to offer EBT to everyone.  

    Darius is young... give him time -- he has done some wonderful research and I believe he's on the right track.

    He was my chief resident on my Internal Med rotation at Stanford, as a pharmacy clerkship student.  My classmates (male and female) all drooled after him... Some thought he was a blond, hazel-eyed Persian god. Very kind, humble, hard worker (despite family wealth) and smart too!  

    -G

  • Dr. B G

    8/30/2008 3:51:00 PM |

    Sven,

    Mozzafarian is misinformed about a lot of things -- he wrote a letter once advising against EBT heartscans (low rad, no dyes, low maintenance) for the general population (he's kinda right -- health insurance may not be able to 'afford' an EBT for 'everyone' however on the flip side, if prevention of expensive procedures and hospitalizations (and optimal health) were goals of health insurance, then eventually they cannot NOT afford to offer EBT to everyone.  

    Darius is young... give him time -- he has done some wonderful research and I believe he's on the right track.

    He was my chief resident on my Internal Med rotation at Stanford, as a pharmacy clerkship student.  My classmates (male and female) all drooled after him... Some thought he was a blond, hazel-eyed Persian god. Very kind, humble, hard worker (despite family wealth) and smart too!  

    -G

  • mike V

    9/2/2008 5:10:00 AM |

    BETTER THAN STATINS

    Keep up the good work folks.
    More vindication from Europe.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/31/healthscience/fishoil31.php

    Mike V

  • Anonymous

    11/16/2008 4:31:00 AM |

    "What about all those CVD-free populations that don´t eat any fish (e.g. Masai)? Obviously fish (oil) is not necessary to be healthy"
    thye eat a lot of grass fed animals and their organ and drink their blood all high im omega 3

  • Davide

    11/30/2008 7:51:00 PM |

    Dr. Davis,

    Just came across your blog recently--fascinated by it. Learning a lot. Question: Have you had any experience with Neptune Krill Oil? The DHA and EPA in it is supposedly naturally bound to naturally-occurring phospholipids (the composition of our all our cell membranes), which makes its bioavailability and assimilation so much higher. Consequently, so much less is needed for a therapeutic dose.

    There are also several clinical trials (even though they are small) with really amazing results.

    Check it out and please let me know what you think.

    http://neptunebiotech.com/

  • Anonymous

    3/12/2009 6:44:00 PM |

    I keep reading about getting toxic dose of Vit A with taking high doses of fish oils.  The vegetarian option only seems to have DHA and no EPA.  Sugestions?

  • buy jeans

    11/3/2010 10:44:23 PM |

    Dr. Goldstrich has proven especially adept at understanding how to incorporate new findings from clinical studies in our framework of coronary atherosclerotic plaque management strategies.

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