The advice given by thyroid docs, at least the kind that understand more about it than average and are willing to prescribe Armour, etc, is that you should reduce goitrogen intake while you are first starting treatment for hypothyroidism and/or iodine deficiency, then they're OK to have more of in your diet. The goitrogenic effect of most of them is minimised or negated by cooking anyway. Mine did advise that soy could be a bit more problematic and you should avoid consuming any within four hours of taking your thyroid medication, if you swallow the medication instead of taking it sublingually.

Very interesting!  I was hoping you would follow up your iodine/goiter posts with something about goitrogens.  I'd like to read up on the human trials, if there's anything more than abstracts available.  Any urls handy?  Also, just wanted to say I really appreciate your blog, and thank you.

I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and my endocrinologist (who is fantastic; she titrates my dose to my symptoms, and has me on Armor) has suggested that I want to take the following two precautions around goitrogens:

a) Don't eat the "biggies" such as soy within four hours of taking my thyroid medication.

b) Eat them moderately and fairly steadily; a serious pig-out on raw broccoli or edamame after weeks without may cause a swing, but a normal diet that includes them is no big deal.  This means that I actively want to include these things in my diet (which is good, because I both like them and they are good for me.)  If I keep the amount steady then we can just balance my dose against any goitrogenic effect they might have.

My understanding of the cruciferous vegetable family is that their goitrogenic effect is negated or at least minimized by cooking or fermentation.

Hi Dr Davis,

FYI - in case you are not aware, the home testing kit shopping area is not working.  At least I've tried ordering with two different computers with out luck.

Flit--

Thanks for your comments.

I like option "b", the most practical and logical.

Anon--

I believe that the lab test area should be working now.

We are in the process of transferring all files over to a new website and servers. There may therefore be momentary glitches that shouldn't last more than a few minutes while the programmers make the switch.

On the bright side, the new website will be more user-friendly.

Max--

The easiest way is to just go to PubMed.gov and enter the relevant search terms.

You will find oodles of studies, many in mice or in vitro preparations, a few in humans. You can specify which--mouse vs. human, for instance, in your choice of search terms.

The researchers claim that the findings provide little evidence that "in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function."
The researchers also stated that "there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate." They also claim that "some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients."

This study is suggesting that soy is safe -- unless you have a thyroid condition, or iodine deficiency. It also suggests that soy foods can inhibit absorption of thyroid medication.
The study doesn't address the fact that it's estimated that as much as one-fourth of the U.S. population is now iodine deficient, and that the number is on the rise. At the same time, many millions of Americans also have undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid disease. At minimum, if you accept the premise of this study, that means that more than 75 million Americans with iodine deficiency may be at risk of thyroid problems from soy consumption. If you include the up to 60 million Americans who have a diagnosed or undiagnosed thyroid condition, almost half of all Americans could be at risk of soy-related thyroid problems.

It's also troubling to note that the author of this study -- and several other recent studies claiming soy is not a danger to the thyroid, is Mark Messina, PhD. Messina, though not a medical doctor, also goes by the name "Dr. Soy." Messina had been in charge of grant funding at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), where he oversaw a $3 million grant for soy studies. Soon after he left NIH, he was hired to serve on the scientific advisory boards of both the United Soybean Board, and international soy agribusiness Archer Daniels Midland. He still serves on both scientific advisory boards as a paid advisor. In addition to his work on these advisory boards, Messina is a consultant to the United Soybean Board and editor of its soy-related newsletter, and serves as a paid speaker and consultant to promote the positive benefits of soy for the United Soybean Board's "Soy Connection.". Messina has also published a number of books promoting soy. The "Political Friendster" website, which tracks corporate influence, has documented the close relationship between Messina and the various corporate players in the soy industry.

the full 5 page article can be read at.
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm?nl=1

Help, I am so confused!

I have a goiter and nodules diagnosed via an ultrasound screen. I have an appt with my MD to take the next step to do lab etc. I am hoping the goiter is caused by iodine deficiency and not Hashimotos. I have been reading about supplementing with iodine but some folks say take lots (12+ mgs) others say taking more will exacerbate a hypothyroid condition. I have been taking kelp capsules 4 daily supplying 1600 mcg. I have been tempted to up the dose but don't want to mess things up. Should I wait until test results come back, then if it is negative for Hashi's go ahead and do mega doses? or should I not be afraid to supplement?

Thanks for this blog, and thanks for all the intelligent comments through-out. I have learned so much.

Laura in Arizona

Hi again Dr Davis,

I was the one that wrote earlier about having troubles ordering testing kits.  The system still is having trouble - at least with my computers, at home and work.  Thought you might want to know.  
The error occurs after pressing the submit order button.  

Below is a cut and paste of what the error says.  Hope this helps!    

Server Error in '/' Application.
Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.Runtime.InteropServices.COMException: Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.

Source Error:

Line 146:
Line 147:    Public Function ProcessCC(ByVal PaymentObject As PaymentObjCC) As ArrayList
Line 148:        Dim pfpro As New PFPro
Line 149:        Dim Response As String
Line 150:        Dim pCtlx As Integer


Source File: E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainApp_CodePayflowProPFProProcessor.vb    Line: 148

Stack Trace:

[COMException (0x80040154): Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.]
   PayFlowPro.PFPro..ctor() +13
   PFProProcessor.ProcessCC(PaymentObjCC PaymentObject) in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainApp_CodePayflowProPFProProcessor.vb:148
   Checkout.CompleteOrderCC() in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainproductsCheckout.aspx.vb:970
   Checkout.btnSubmitOrder_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainproductsCheckout.aspx.vb:1113
   System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e) +111
   System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +110
   System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.System.Web.UI.IPostBackEventHandler.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +10
   System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(IPostBackEventHandler sourceControl, String eventArgument) +13
   System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(NameValueCollection postData) +36
   System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain(Boolean includeStagesBeforeAsyncPoint, Boolean includeStagesAfterAsyncPoint) +1565


Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:2.0.50727.3082; ASP.NET Version:2.0.50727.3082

What a great resource!

How about humans? The few trials conducted in humans have shown little or no effect. In most instances, the adverse effects of goitrogens have been eliminated with supplemental iodine. In other words, goitrogens seem to exert their ill thyroid effects when iodine deficiency is present. Restore iodine . . . no more goitrogens (with rare exceptions).

ABOUT THE QUESRCETIN has also been identified as a goitrogen (Giuliani C et al 2008).

WOW, this is the most detailed information I have seen so far  online about the Resveratrol and flavonoids being goitrogenic,

I have been searching and searching, as I just had read briefly of an experiment with rats that showed Resveratrol (red wine + grape seeds extract) was causing the thyroid gland to enlarge
I really appreciate you posting this info

I have hypothyroidism, I take small doses of Armour and it really works great for me, and was taking Resveratrol too, (which by the way, it seemed to help me a lot, especially with giving strength and gloss to my hair)
So when i heard about this experiment i was shocked. Then I found out that even all kind of fruits are goitrogenic (as you point out) and tea and greens and garlic and onion and potatoes and beans, but above all, fruit and grapes.

Is so hopeless, I in fact, by fear, suspended the resveratrol, and now, and is funny, as now I am experiencing some minor hair loss, I am sure due to that I stopped taking this amazing supplement which was helping my hair to grow strongly

So I am so confused, my doctor as most of doctors, do not have a clue, as there is no enough info about all this and also no willingness to look into this research as well

He told me to stop taking it
But as you point out, then we should also stop eating then, as it seems that for one reason or another ,, all food is goitrogenic, soy, brassica greens, all greens, and veggies and fruit and also chickens and animals that seems are fed with goitrogenic grass and seeds
So what choice do we have?
ALSO I found this experiment on same PubMed which seems contradictory, I am not a doctor but it seems that it helps to add iodide (which is in iodine)  to the thyroid???

IS there any MD on this site who might throw some light on this???

or anyone here who has read more on this quercetin or Resveratrol? or knows about where to find more info about real evidence that flavonoids really work that way in humans????
(by the way thank you for posting the Giuliani experiment, was that on humans or rats?)

Does anyone knows of a good medical website or any that provides more information about this confusing subject?
Please, help, let me know,
Thank you
Nella

OOPS
about the QUERCETIN

here is that experiment URL
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20151827

Spontaneous human Combustion is something that has always captured all my attention. Thank you for the interesting post, it's been a real pleasure reading it.

very nice psot Kamagra

Dr. Davis,
Thanks for putting up this information and for bringing this doctor into full view for me--I'm always seeking out better and newer ways to prevent any kind of heart problems from manifesting themselves in the first place!

This information/news is very exciting and encouraging!

Thank you again!
Adam

Dr. Davis,

The product Dr. Prendergast endorses is made by a company he works for and is also sold by his clinic, and lists at $97 for a 30-gram supply.  So following Track Your Plaque principles, this would cost almost $200 a month.  Do you think the claimed improvements in this l-arginine product really justify this huge expense?

I'd like to correct my earlier comment - the product has 30 "servings" that deliver 5 grams of l-arginine each.  In Track Your Plaque, you recommend 5 to 6 grams twice daily, so this would last 15 days.

Hi, Warren-

As often happens, it is difficult to separate marketing from fact.

I am personally skeptical that this product offers any specific advantage unless they produce specific data to prove it. I hope my questions to Dr. Prendergast do NOT come across as an endorsement. It was simply providing some information from an interesting perspective, in this case dug up by a Track Your Plaque Member.

For these reasons, one of the tools we're working on is the Track Your Plaque Marketplace, a place on the Track Your Plaque website that will allow both us and you to post your comments, experiences--both good and bad, and sort of WIKI-like collective experience and wisdom. We're also trying to arrange the possibility of free samples for trying some of the products.

As always, we are not selling the products, but directing people to the places they are available.

Hi Dr. Davis and Warren:

FYI, Dr. Cooke of Stanford told me earier this year that he has "backed away" from the arginine endorsements and he wishes to revise his 2002 book on the subject.

I made another comment in the Advanced Discussion board today about Dr. Prendergast, if anyone is interested.

Apologies for all the comments:

I looked at the ingredients in the expensive arginine product that Dr. Prendergast endorses. It has a few extra good things -- that don't justify the price -- but are useful:

Arginine 5g
Citrulline - "Proprietary" - I estimate 0.5g
D3 powder - 2500 IU (may not absorb per Dr. Davis's recommendations on oil-solubility)
Ribose - "Proprietary" - I estimate 1g -- not enough to do anything
K2 - 20 mcg (not enough)
B6, B12, Folic -- small amounts
Grape stuff - "Proprietary" - maybe 50 mg or so of polyphenols

I'm baffled. After reading your book and researching
the net on l arginine I sent away for Now Sports l-arginine powder (100% pure free form).
I just received  it today and on the suggested usage table it states "Do not use if you have established
coronary artery disease".
Why would they say that ?
Love your blog
Gene Mc

Hi, Gene--

The only reason I know of was a study that suggested heightened risk of death if l-arginine is taken after a heart attack.

In my view, the study was flawed since it is alone in show this effect, the numbers were small, and the majority of the deaths in the group taking arginine had stopped taking it months earlier when the deaths occurred.

Hello all, I'm a new blogger here. Let's start off with a bang! The comments about ProArgin9 are fairly amusing, it's basically a hugely-overpriced elemental l-arginine powder with a couple added nutrients one could easily improve upon for a much cheaper price.  Don't believe the ads on this one, the hype is almost as bad as the statin ads.

This is new blogger "Jim" again. A few additional comments of mine on arginine supplementation in general... The point isn't that arginine in itself will cure all that ails you (in fact, users looking for quick dramatic results with arginine for problems such as male ED will be disappointed), but that it is one fairly inexpensive strategy that can, importantly, improve the arginine:ADMA ratio favorably, which is important for optimal nitric oxide production. If you're not familiar with ADMA, look at some of the clinical studies on this risk factor, and you'll be better able to appreciate some of the logic behind supplemental arginine.

My wife and I have used L-Arginine for years and now work with several scientist to actually measure the effect we felt using it, and have developed our own mix.

Dr. Allen and Dr. Pendergast are making missleading claims. Dr. Allen is not even a real doctor and neither of them ever provided ANY data to support their missleading claims.

L-Arginen ONLY works well in the right dosis, attached to a slow carb and mixed with equal amounts of L-Licine and some other ingredients, those I will list on my web site.
When taken in the right dosis, at the right time, the right way intake of L-Arginine DOES work well. There can be no doubt about it. BUT Synergy World Wide and other companies who got their stuff from Dr. Allen or made something of their own trying to clone hers, failed to do any DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES, not even a small one!
And the price of $97 is a HUGE RIP OFF.
At best the stuff ONLY cost about 12 bucks per kilo to make. To sell it in these low dosis and with sucralose  or what ever artificial dioxin based sweetener is criminal!
DO NOT BUY IT FROM DR. ALLEN OR SYNERGY, if you do you waste your money.
I and am NOT selling it in the US. I only sell it in Europe. At least for now, untill we have done our own double blind and can verify.

Hi I am fascinated by this article. I have a friend who recently had a test done by synergy doctor selling proargi9 and guess what it said her blood pressure was normal (she's 58) her heart was perfcet but her arteries were those of 80 yr old female. So she was put on very high and very costly doses of proargi9. Also on the subject of arginine. My daughter took some (not proargi9) arginine in june and ended up in hospital after passing out. Her blood pressure had dropped severely.
She was also put on drip for dehydration.
I believe that arginine is banned in canada - any comments??

I am a 42 year old male who has been taking a mixture of Pro-Argi9 plus, Mistica and Core Greens for over 6 weeks.
The reason I started on this is because I am a care-giver for my mother.  She is 75 years old and has suffered a stroke in 2004, followed by a triple by-pass surgery in 2006, has type 2 diabeties and anemia, osteoporsis, arthitis, and had both hip restructuring and replacement surgery as well as a broken wrist in  2008.  I wanted to enable her to recover easier, and I wouldn't give her any more "medicine" to take without trying it myself.  The difference for both of us has been amazing.  Not only has my mother's rehabilitation been quicker than before, she is also benefiting from eyesight improvement and her blood pressure is "perfect" as quoted from her personal physician.
The effects on myself have been almost as drastict.  I have more energy and feeling better and healthier than when I was 20.
I have also seen some great results in others including personal friends who have started taking the above on my recommendation.
I researched the net pretty well before I started and don't take my mother's health lightly.  If you are able to show certified medical data to back up your statements, then I am happy to stop taking it and will let others know the same.

With regards to the price, the products produced by Synergy Worldwide are the only ones available with the stated ingredients etc that I have been able to source.  I have seen the tablet and capsule forms and believe me, on a cost per recommendended doseage, the Synergy product is far more economical.  
In any circumstances, with the amount of money I've seen women spend on dying their hair with caustic chemicals, or men put over the bar or into their "wheels", the cost of 30 scoops at Synergy's recommended dosage, equates to $25.00 per week, less than the cost of a week's worth of cappacinos. Very well worth it for my health.

Regards
Tom

After reviewing the article from Dr. Prendergast I decided to try His Proargi9 Plus having been diagnose with Atherosclerosis about two years ago. I am on no medication but I get angina after long walks.

I started with one scope per day and increase to two scopes per day. I noticed after 5min I would start feeling angina it would go away after a few minutes. Is this normal? with this product.

I would really like to try l-arginine but wonder if there are any contra-indications if a person is taking plavix???  I am also taking lipitor.  I had a triple by-pass 7 years ago and a stent last November. I am 63 years old and lead a healthy lifestyle (regular exercise & healthy diet & meditation).  My doctors don't know anything about this alternative and cannot advise me much.  Is it safe for me to take this????  Also, Herbal life makes a product (Niteworks).  Do you have an opinion on this product??
Kristin Ann

Hi guys,
I've taken ProArgi9plus for 4 months and feel heaps better. My angina has gone and my thrombisis pain is nearly gone as well.
I have 2 friends. One has had 4 major heart attacks and a 6 bypass op. The other one has had 5 bypass and 3 heart attacks since plus 5 stents. They wanted to do more bypass ops but he said no.
Both have spoken to Dr Prendergast and taken as per his instructions. Both have changed dramatically over a period of time. Both look like they did years ago and seem to have their lives back. As for the price... I think it's cheaper then a funeral. I don't fancy looking up through the dirt any time soon.

Peter
PS If you 'd like to speak to the guy who had 6 bypass I know he's happily talk to anyone as he feels so good.

Hi Guys,
Just to start I have to say I sell ProArgi9.
The reason I do is because I have 2 friends who both should be dead. One in Western Australia has had 4 major heart attacks and then a 6 bypass op. Ended up in an electric wheelchair. Could hardly walk anymore.
The other guy is from Sydney Australia and had 5 bypass 8 years ago, several heart attacks since and 4 stents. Finally told him he needed 4 more bypasses.
Both went on the arginine on high dose after talking to Dr Prendergast. Both are now in amazing health. The Sydney guy has just spent 2 weeks traveling across the US learning more about clinical hypnotherapy.

The WA guy just a couple of months ago traveled around Aus. I've know the WA guy for 30 years and the other one for approx 20 years so I knew them when they were healthy and also when they were sick.

Hope this info helps in your decision making.
Peter

PS if you'd like to talk to one of them I think I could arrange it.

Dr. Joseph Predergast is founder of the Endocrine Metabolic Medical Center in Palo Alto, California, focused on providing care for people with diabetes.

Has anyone compared before and after CT Scans after using an L-Arginine/L-Citruline protocol?

I have been on ProArgi-9 Plus since Dec 30th 2010 and have had some amazing health benefits from it. I am doing 4 scoops a day.
I had suffered from dizzy feeling for the last 2 years where I felt like I was going to fall out of my chair. That feeling stopped the first day of taking ProArgi-9. I also have not had any hot flashes or restless leg symptoms since taking it.
I have vascular diease. I have a stint in my left cartoid, my right cartoid is closed. And I have had a balloon angioplasty on my aorta 3times. I am 54 years old female.
I plan on taking ProArgi-9 for the rest of my life. After all what is your health worth? I will find a way to pay for it. I am worth it.

Further to my comments of my two friends who got better on ProArginine. One has proof from to 2 angio-grams one year apart.

He makes enormous amounts of ADMA (been tested) and had to take between 30 to 40 grams of pure arginine a day. Thats up to 8 scoops a day. He had 4 stents blocked and had been told he had to have the bypasses or die within a month or two.

One year later his cardiologist said he may feel well but he still needed the opperation. He had another angio-gram. His blocked stents were totally clear. He can run and play with his grandchildren again for the first time in years.

My oppinion derived from testing over 200 people using the BPro machine (which is 99.1% as accurate as an angiogram)is that the synthetic versions I.e. cheap arginines do not work anywhere as well as plant derived products.
Also people taking arginine hcl mostly didn't improve. Some did

Argine hcl is arginine attached to hydrochloric acid. Many people don't react well to this. Those that do need to take a higher dose to get the same effects as those taking a pure arginine.

BTW Before using and recommending arginine to my clients I contacted quite a few companies and none of them would tell me how they sourced their arginine and if it was synthetic, soy based or or what. Synergy was the only one who did so. Theirs comes from organically grown tapioca or sugar cane.

I would never use or recommend soy based products as 90% of the worlds soy is now genetically modified and how do you know if what is being used is GM safe or not.

Hope this helps anyone trying to decide what to do.

Get yourself a high grade pure arginine that is plany based.

Fascinating and funny. Thanks for the post. I'm glad I found your blog

Jeff Brailey
http://wordworks2001.blogspot.com

Check my blog and find out why I refused to have a quintuple coronary artery bypass in the spring of 2004 and am alive to tell about it almost three years later.

Dr. William Roberts, editor of the American Journal of Cardiology and cardiovascular pathologist, is a perennial source of clever ideas on heart disease.


He's also on the advisory board of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) - an organization with a very clear agenda.

(2) The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (about 3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (about 12 times body length). (Since I am 6 feet tall my intestinal tract should be about 60 feet long. As a consequence, if I eat bovine muscle [steak], it could take 5 days to course through those 20 yards.)

I can't believe a physician thinks the human intestine is "about 60 feet long". At most, it's about 25 feet long.

Provocative thoughts, yes....

By way of full disclosure, the leadership and advisory board of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) includes:

PCRM Board of Directors: Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President; Roger Galvin, Esq., Secretary; Andrew Nicholson, M.D., Director.

PCRM’s advisory board includes 11 health care professionals from a broad range of specialties:

T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. Cornell University
Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. The Cleveland Clinic
Suzanne Havala Hobbs, Dr.PH., M.S., R.D. The Vegetarian Resource Group
Henry J. Heimlich, M.D., Sc.D. The Heimlich Institute
Lawrence Kushi, Sc.D. Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente
Virginia Messina, M.P.H., R.D. Nutrition Matters, Inc.
John McDougall, M.D. McDougall Program, St. Helena Hospital
Milton Mills, M.D. Gilead Medical Group
Myriam Parham, R.D., L.D., C.D.E. East Pasco Medical Center
William Roberts, M.D. Baylor Cardiovascular Institute
Andrew Weil, M.D. University of Arizona

Clearly, as a comment mentioned, they have a viewpoint or agenda, however that doesn't mean they are wrong, anymore than carnivore-type programs may be right for everyone.

In my opinion, there's plenty of room for 'novel' thoughts in the field of preventive cardiology and I appreciate Dr. Davis bringing them forward.

And most clearly of all, there's plenty wrong with the conventional "standard American diet" no matter which end of the dietary spectrum one embraces.

Whatever WORKS to help with plaque reversal!

"However, modern livestock raising practices have substantially modified the composition of meats."

Is patient education difficult on such subject matter?  Curious; had to ask.

And how about the flesh of grass fed beef and wild game?  Is that good, better, more acceptable but still bad?  How about the folks who believe anthropologically we were meant to to eat a hunters and gatherers diet?

Polar bears have the longest intestine of all the bears. I'm like a polar bear.

Hi Dr. Davis,
Your favorite internet TYP promoter checking in. : )  Thought to mention a possible opportunity - a friend of mine mentioned that he printed out and passed on a copy of your latest blog posting, the Big Squeeze, to his friend, Congressman Jim Marshall.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Marshall_%28U.S._politician%29
Don't know if much will come of it, but being an opportunity thought to bring to your attention.  
You might want to delete my mentioning of this.

Just found your blog and am enjoying it.

On this topic, I read such a comparison by a veterinarian who had cared for sheep, dogs and cows for 30 years.  Unfortunately I can't find it at the moment

His take was the opposite.  

Some things I remember were that humans, like carnivores, can swallow very large chunks of food that would kill a herbivore.

Humans don't have 4 stomachs and don't chew cud.

Human stereo vision is much more like all types of predators (eagles, cats, dogs, hawks, predatory fish) than almost any herbivore (eyes almost on the sides of the head)

If you look at human hands, they look a lot like the Bonobo monkey's hands and NOT at all like a gorilla's hands.  Bonobos eat a lot of meat - insects, rodents, birds, and gorillas eat a lot of fruit and vegetables.

That's basically what I remember.

I'll post a link later to the fill thing if I can find it.

Sam in Toronto

Another thing I remember - the intestine length argument goes both ways - some carnivores do have long intestines.

Something that does not go both ways - human intestines have the enzyme systems needed to degest lots of chemicals that ONLY exist in MEAT.

As far as I know, you cannot get these from plants, or from only 1 or 2 plants in the world  

Heme iron (not a big deal these days, but this was huge in the past, where every human, even kings, had dozens of blood-extracting parasites on the skin, in the hair and intestines)

creatine (vegetarians can be synthesize this out of plant methionine)

EPA/DHA (from fish oil - in ancient times, in meat - none in vegetables - there's no plant source for EPA, and only seaweed for DHA)

B12

also, as an efficiency measure over and above the efficiency of digesting individual amino acids, human digestion can grab large chunks of protein, many of which occur only in meat ( very, very large peptices -  but I forget what these are called - globulins or antigens)  

Sam in Toronto (that's me, the author, not a chemical that humans can digest and that does not occur in vegetables)

Robert's comment is interesting, it's also grossly in error.  

We're not rabbits or dogs, we're humans, and we're omnivores.

The anthropological record is quite clear at this point.  We evolved large brains to hunt prey, and the fat of that prey allowed our brain to get larger, making us better hunters.  We sweat because we could outrun our herbivorous prey, using our naked skin as a superior cooing mechanism.  We have smaller teeth because we've been cooking our food for 1.5 million years, or so.

We do seem to need some vegetable matter in our diets.  Even the Eskimos eat some.  But we do fine on a primarily animal diet.  A cow would not.

It'd be nice if a physician was a little more familiar with the species he's treating.  A veterinarian couldn't get away with this degree of ignorance.

I wish I knew more about exactly what Lp(a) will do that will cause me problems.  I have high Lp(a)(22 on my VAP test).

I am 5'2" and weight 110.  I am a fitness professional -  healthy blood pressure level.

My TC at it's worse was 226 with low Trig, high HDL, and high LDL (144).  My Dr wanted me to get the LDL down with drugs.  I chose the supplement path, and increased my fiber intake.

My TC is now around 224, but my HDL is 86, and LDL 118.  My real LDL size pattern is A/B.  My HDL 2 & 3, and VLDL 3 are all in the desireable range.

Oh - I do have a family history of heart disease (mother had strokes in her 60s).

I had a heart scan - no measurable plaque found.  I'm 55 years old.

That darn Lp.  Should I be worried it's going to do something I'm not aware of?

Bonnie

Yes. You might have a Lp(a) variant that accounts more for carotid disease than coronary disease, judging from your mom's history. Also, you are still young. Some women will not fully express Lp(a) characteristics until their late 50s.

All the principles we talk about for Lp(a) on the Track Your Plaque website still apply. Also, please see our upcoming report that summarizes unique strategies for Lp(a) treatment to be released in the next two weeks.

If Bonnie thinks her LP(a) at 22 is high, I guess mine is high also at 24, but at least its a whole lot better than it was 18 months ago when it was 52.   I attribute the reduction to DMAE and NAC,thanks to your recomendations, Dr. Davis.

Your list of possible examples of high LP(a) just doesn't include me.

My BMI is 21.  I have relatively low blood pressure,95-110 over 70.  My age is 65.   Total Chol=190; LDL=110  HDL>65 and sometimes as high as 100.  Low Trigs < 70.

No family history (mother still kicking at 95). Father died in hi 70's from pancreatic cancer with a very strong heart and lung system.  And yet I have had a really high LP(a)!!!

I can't afford a CT scan, as much as I would like to get one, but I did have a lipoprotein breakdown which showed
VLDL=25; LDL particle number 789 dense LDL IV=101 HDL Total=9066 and Buoyant HDL 2b=2528.  All  measured in (nmol/L).  My density was neither A nor B, but in an intermediate zone near the A border.

My homocysteine is raised (12.26) probably because of the 750mg of Slo-Niacin I take, but I'm trading niacin's lipid enhancements for it.

When my LP(a) was at 52, all blood work was similar to now, weight was the same, exercise, diet, everything was the same.   I don't understand why it was so high.   I was hoping your list would give me a clue, but I'm just not on it!!!

Noreen

Thanks.  My mom unfortunately led an extremely sedentary lifestyle, and didn't eat well or take care of herself.  I always assumed her strokes were a result of that.  I guess it was probably part of it, but not all of it.

I did not know about Carotid disease - seems all I ever hear about is Heart Disease these days.

I look forward to finding out more about the new approaches to dealing with Lp(a)!

Bonnie

Hi, Noreen-
I'm curious about the DMAE. I've used it (unsuccessfully) for memory enhancement, but not to reduce Lp(a). What is the basis for this?

Big Goof, Dr. D!!!  I was tired and didn't get up to check my supplements.  I'm taking 50mg of DHEA for lowering the LP(a)!!!

Sorry, thats what I get for getting into this stuff so late at night!!!

I'm still at a loss as why mine went so high (52)!!!   Especially with no family history of heart disease.

Noreen

Noreen - your post reminded me of something that I find curious.

When I first had my Lp(a) tested it wsa a separate test from my Cholesterol test.  Results came back 59 wih a reference range of  0-29.  

Next time it was measured it was part of a VAP test, and when I saw it at 22 I thought it had dropped (by some miracle .  Then I noticed the reference range was different, and that the high end of the range was 10.  

Different tests maybe?

Bonnie

Thanks Bonnie -- Yes, it was different labs, but the reference range was less than 30 on each one.   I did read somewhere that some labs use less than 20 as the normal range, but these two labs used < 30.

This lab also did a nutrient profile and found that I was deficient in pantothenate, glutamine and glutathione.   I was already taking 500mg NAC, but they recommended 1000mg, so I'm now taking 1200mg of Jarrow Sustain NAC in hopes it will satisfy the glutathione deficiency and lower that LP(a) further.  

I also started taking pantothenate to satisfy that and read that it can reduce LDL, so I'm hopefull there.   I upped the glutamine that I was already taking and switched to a powder form.

Thanks,
Noreen

Hi, Noreen-
Somebody, Mom or Dad, had to give you Lp(a), though the expression and consequences of Lp(a) can vary.

Is it a dominant characteristic from just one parent or can it be a recessive one from both with neither having it?   I don't think my mom has ever been tested, but her doctor said her heart is still very strong at 95.    My paternal grandfather died of a massive heart attack at 78.  Before that he was hospitalized several times with fluid in his chest (cardio-myapthy) maybe?

I was under the impression that if it were genetic that nothing will reduce it.  Is this wrong?   Mine did come down to 24 after taking the NAC and DHEA.   I'm really looking forward to reading that paper on lowering it too.  Thanks so much,
Noreen

Dr. Davis, just to clarify:

1. Lp(a) is not like IDL, where having any measurable amount is abnormal, right?  Mine was 7 mg/dL, and I took this to mean that I don't "have Lp(a)."

2. Also unlike IDL, small LDL, etc., it's purely hereditary and not a symptom of metabolic syndrome or similar, correct?  So if I don't have it at 30, I don't need to worry about developing it by 50?

Thanks

Lp(a) is genetic but blood levels are manipulable. But Mom or Dad HAD to give it to you, they just may not have fully expressed its consequences (which does happen occassionally, for not entirely clear reasons).

Hi, Bad--
Yes, correct on both counts.

But Mom or Dad HAD to give it to you, they just may not have fully expressed its consequences (which does happen occassionally, for not entirely clear reasons).

So Dr. Davis, are you saying that if you have this genetic marker, that it is inevitable that at some point down the line it will do bad things - no matter how good all of the rest of your risk factors are? (assuming there continues to be no reliable way to reduce it).

Bonnie

No, not inevitable, but darn close. It could be expressed as hearet disease, carotid disease, aneurysms, or just hypertension.

Are there any major differences between  Lp(a) testing via a VAP test as compared to NMR?

VAP seems to use a lower test range (over 10 being considered high). Does this mean their test is different than others, or simply they use a lower marker to differentiate between high and low? And would a Lp(a) test via VAP be as accurate as one from NMR, etc,?

My VAP numbers for Lp(a) was pretty low, around 4-5, if I remember right. I just want to make sure this was an accurate test.

There are several methodological differences among the various Lp(a) measures. For this reason, I advise everyone to always stick with the same laboratory. There may also be differences in the validity or accuracy. This is detailed in a full Special Report on the Track Your Plaque website.

My Lp(a) score came back at 160--that's right--160!  I have a stent in one artery, obviously I have CAD.  I presently take Zocor 20 mg. and an Ace Inhibitor drug.  I can not take Niacin---what can I do?


   Joan

Dr Davis,
My Cardiologist has me on 1500mg Niacin which reduces LP(a)to around 30 and that seems to be about the lowest I can get it, as more Niacin gives me a rash. So He says we need to reduce LDL as low as possible by diet,exercise and possibly a low Statin dose. Reducing the amount of carriers, He says, will negate to a large degree, the risk of my high LP(a). Does this sound like sound treatment?   Thanks.....

That sounds like a very solid approach to Lp(a). Congratulations to your doctor for being up to date in his thinking about Lp(a).

Also, watch for an upcoming report on our Track Your Plaque website for a review of unique therapies for Lp(a).

I'm afraid that's a bit too much to handle in a blog post.

You are invited to read our Track Your Plaque Special Reports on Lp(a), including an upcoming review of unique therapies to be posted within the next two weeks.

Also, watch for an upcoming report on our Track Your Plaque website for a review of unique therapies for Lp(a)

Can you see me tapping my foot..... impatiently.....  

  
(Just kidding)


I hesitate to take Niacin because I have a tendency toward slightly high liver enzymes for some reason (possibly mild NAFLD since all other tests came back negative), and I've read Niacin can raise liver enzymes.  I look forward to hearing about other possibilities.

Bonnie

SO after all is said and done should a LP(a) redaing of 12 be of any concern? It is noted as "high" on my VAP test but it certainly is close to normal. All of my other readings on the VAP are normal.

John

These red flags are not perfect. If you lack any of them, it doesn't necessarily rule out the possbility of having Lp(a). They simply serve as signs to suggest that Lp(a) may be lurking.