Fred Hahn's Slow Burn

8. September 2010 William Davis (166)
I just had a workout with personal trainer and fitness expert, Fred Hahn. After a workout that quickly taught me that I had a lot to learn about exercise and strength training, Fred and I had a nice low-carbohydrate dinner at a Manhattan restaurant and shared ideas.

Fred is coauthor of Slow Burn Fitness Revolution: The slow motion exercise that will change your body in 30 minutes a week, written in collaboration with the Drs. Eades, Michael and Mary Dan. Fred also blogs here.

I had heard about Fred's "slow-burn" concept in past, but made little of it. I then met Fred on Jimmy Moore's low-carb cruise this past year, where I gave a talk on how carbohydrate-reduced diets reduce small LDL particles. Fred provided a group demonstration on his slow-burn techniques. I watched the demonstration, even tried it a few times back home in the gym, but never really applied them, losing patience most of the time and just going back to my usual routine.

Well, Fred showed me today how to do his slow-burn. In a nutshell, it is the slow, methodical use of weight resistance until the muscle is exhausted. It involves slow movement--e.g., 5 seconds for a lat pulldown from top to bottom--repeated until exhaustion using a weight that allows, perhaps, 6 repetitions over a 60-second effort.

I've been strength training since I was a teenager. I've seen lots of bad training techniques, injuries, and hocum when it comes to how to use resistance training techniques. But I believe that Fred Hahn's slow-burn technique really provides something unique that I hadn't experienced before.

For one, the burn is nothing like I've felt before. Two, there appears to be nearly zero risk for injury, since the usual momentum-driven, herky-jerky motion often employed with weight machines is entirely gone. Three, if what Fred is seeing is true--enhanced visceral (abdominal) fat loss, reduced blood glucose, increased HDL, decreased LDL/total cholesterol--then there's something really interesting going on here.

I also discovered that Fred is no ordinary personal trainer. He has insights into metabolism that I found truly impressive. After all, he's been hanging around with Mike Eades, who's a pretty sharp guy. What Mike Eades is to metabolic insights is what Fred Hahn is to exercise physiology.

I'm going to take Fred's slow burn training insights home with me. I'll let you know how it goes. Some aspects I'd like to explore: Will strength, muscle mass, and blood sugar responses change?



Fred Hahn's latest book, adapting slow burn techniques for kids.
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Comments (166) -

  • Gina; The Candid RD

    9/8/2010 2:13:21 AM |

    I love your blog.

    I had a client today who asked me why she has a normal BS, but a high (8%) HbA1c.  I found your post about this (a March post) and I loved your explanation.

    Thankfully, that was what I had told her, or at least something similar. I guess I knew more than I thought!

    Although, I would thing some people would get as high as 200-300 after a mean, which would thus effect the A1c.  I would also think it might have something to do with really high nighttime blood sugars.  I know some people can get up to 400 or 500 at night, which could have an effect on A1c.



    You explained it well.  Thanks.

  • Engineer

    9/8/2010 8:05:50 AM |

    My 6-month experience with Slow Burn is that it's effective for building strength with minimal time commitment.  It has also resolved a chronic shoulder dislocation problem (probably by strengthening my rotator cuff).

    For fat loss, my experience has been inconsistent.  I had more or less plateaued with low-carbing even though I'd like to lose another 5-10 lb.  

    My current theory based (only) on my own experience is that the slow burn workout helps fat loss when done in an "aerobic" manner.  For me this means waiting a bit after reaching the "point of failure" and doing some more reps even without the "perfect form".

    I would really like to see a thorough treatment of the resistance vs. aerobic exercise issue.  The "anti-aerobic' people make a good case that muscular adaptation is the same in both cases.  But does strength training do the same thing as aerobic exercise for production of epinephrine and norepinephrine etc.?

  • Anonymous

    9/8/2010 11:49:09 AM |

    I found the Slow Burn Method too difficult to do alone, so I emailed Fred and asked him to refer me to a personal trainer here in the Seattle area.
    Now I train once a week, and ma getting stronger (can leg press 80 lbs more than I did 6 months ago)
    Haven't noticed any fat loss, but I'm a perimenapausal woman and that seems to have an effect, too.

    Jeanne

  • Anonymous

    9/8/2010 12:47:47 PM |

    This sounds like what was originally called the Super Slow technique by its developer.

    There is an excellent book on this subject and weight training in general for maximum metabolic effect called "Body by Science" by Doug McGuff & John Little.

    The book shows how super high intensity, super slow weight training positively affects the entire metabolic spectrum from aerobic to anaerobic and its attendant increase of insulin sensitivity.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/8/2010 1:13:19 PM |

    Engineer -

    Weight lifting increases lean tissue which increases metabolic rate and contributes to fat loss.

    Doing Slow Burn in the aerobic manner you describe is not necessary and won't aid fat loss. Poor form can possibly over train you and injure you. I'd advice against it.

    To lose the extra 5-10, REALLY be strict with grain/carb intake especially wheat products, get sound sleep, and don't exercise too much.

    Jeanne - fat loss can indeed be difficult when you're PM. My wife is also having great difficulty. But keeping up your strength is very important.

    My book also discusses the metabolic effects of weight training. I'm happy to answer any questions any of you have.

  • Jimmy Moore

    9/8/2010 4:13:45 PM |

    Hey Bill, glad you got to train with Fred. I live what he does and would also love to have someone apply the SN principles with my routine. Look forward to hearing how you do.

  • Dr. John Mitchell

    9/8/2010 5:10:57 PM |

    Fred is correct about his method.

    The SB is a great way to stimulate fast twitch fibers....which are "unreachable" doing the standard aerobic, gym-machine-based exercises.
    And it's the FT fibers that have the better metabolic advantage for fitness training....weight normalization, lipid modifications, insulin sensitivity.

  • Sifter

    9/8/2010 7:45:18 PM |

    With respect, 'feeling the burn' doesn't necessarily correlate to muscle growth. It's lactic acid buildup which tones the muscle temporarily.

    I found good, consistent improvement in my weight lifting by doing just two sets, maybe five reps at most, never to failure. Worked out approx. three times every two weeks. I'm talking big, compound lifts, i.e. deadlifts.

    Others have luck with higher volume. Thinking of Don Blue's 10 sets of 10. Not for me, but works for some, and some coaches (Charles Poliquin, to name one.)


    For an opposing viewpoint, you might want to Google Chad Waterbury's contention that Fast Lifting activates the proper muscle fibers and is more beneficial for strength and size gains. Just sayin'....

  • Fred Hahn

    9/8/2010 8:09:59 PM |

    Sifter - A few thoughts:

    "With respect, 'feeling the burn' doesn't necessarily correlate to muscle growth. It's lactic acid buildup which tones the muscle temporarily."

    That is true. Feeling a burn doesn't mean that you are stimulating muscle growth. Some people never feel much burning, others feel it a lot. In the case of resistance training, you can feel the burn long before you have stimulated the FT fibers. That is why going to complete fatigue is a good rule of thumb.

    "I found good, consistent improvement in my weight lifting by doing just two sets, maybe five reps at most, never to failure. Worked out approx. three times every two weeks. I'm talking big, compound lifts, i.e. deadlifts."

    Again correct. You do not need much  to stimulate a positive tissue adaptation. 2 sets is fine but 1 set will do the trick as well. If you didn't take the sets to failure, but came close, that's ok too. But if you don't know what you can't do, you may have increased your weights to a degree that you were fully capable of doing from the get go. I see this all the time.

    "Others have luck with higher volume. Thinking of Don Blue's 10 sets of 10. Not for me, but works for some, and some coaches (Charles Poliquin, to name one.)"

    It's overkill and there is no research to back up this much volume. It works in spite of itself.

    "For an opposing viewpoint, you might want to Google Chad Waterbury's contention that Fast Lifting activates the proper muscle fibers and is more beneficial for strength and size gains. Just sayin'...."

    Chad is mistaken. I have his book Huge in a Hurry and it is replete with falsehoods. He's just another "expert" who hasn't looked deeply into the relevant literature. Load and tension / time are what recruit the FT fibers not speed of motion. Biceps curl a 5 pound dumbbell as fast as you can. I assure you ZERO FT fibers came to your aid.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/8/2010 8:11:56 PM |

    Sifter - A few thoughts:

    That is true. Feeling a burn doesn't mean that you are stimulating muscle growth. Some people never feel much burning, others feel it a lot. In the case of resistance training, you can feel the burn long before you have stimulated the FT fibers. That is why going to complete fatigue is a good rule of thumb.

    You're right - you do not need much  to stimulate a positive tissue adaptation. 2 sets is fine but 1 set will do the trick as well. If you didn't take the sets to failure, but came close, that's ok too. But if you don't know what you can't do, you may have increased your weights to a degree that you were fully capable of doing from the get go. I see this all the time.

    10 sets of 10 is overkill and there is no research to back up this much volume. It works in spite of itself.

    Chad is mistaken. I have his book Huge in a Hurry and it is replete with falsehoods. He's just another "expert" who hasn't looked deeply into the relevant literature. Load and tension / time are what recruit the FT fibers not speed of motion. Biceps curl a 5 pound dumbbell as fast as you can. I assure you ZERO FT fibers came to your aid.

  • Anonymous

    9/8/2010 8:58:29 PM |

    Interesting post.  I look forward to hearing how it goes for you.  I'll also go looking for the book- thanks!
    Char

  • Anonymous

    9/8/2010 10:41:01 PM |

    Dr. Davis,

    In the final analysis variety is what's important.  Training the same way all the time will make you go flat and lose interest, and will also reduce the effectiveness of the exercises as your body adapts.

    There are different neural, metabolic and muscle adaptations associated with different lifting speeds.  Don't box yourself in with a false dichotomy between Slow Burn and "the usual momentum-driven, herky-jerky motion".

    Generally speaking faster movements with an appropriately heavy weight (not just flinging light weight around) will promote strength while slower movements will promote muscle size.

    Lastly, I will mention that using machines are your least effective choice for fitness as they provide artificial bracing (relative to real life) which alters the natural harmony of primary movers, synergists and stabilizer muscles.  This lack of harmony which emphasizes primary movers without properly developing the supporting muscles will in and of itself increase the risk of injury over time.  Also, consider that your brain is always learning what it is you are asking it to do.  There is a big difference between its learning now to move a lever and learning how to coordinate muscle function that correlates to real world requirements.

    Hope this helps.  Good luck!

  • Fred Hahn

    9/8/2010 11:48:07 PM |

    Anonymous,

    Please provide evidence for each of your statements.

    The burden of proof lies with the claimant.

    None of what you say has any merit.

    Interesting that you call yourself anonymous.

  • Kevin

    9/8/2010 11:55:22 PM |

    I had an achilles injury going back several months.  Two weeks I ran a hilly marathon and tore the right achilles.  Now I can't run and don't see myself running for some time to come.  So I ordered the Hahn book just to see what it's all about.

    kevin

  • Anonymous

    9/9/2010 1:16:13 AM |

    Wow Fred, you must live in a very small world.  Everything I stated has been well established.  It isn't my job to remove your ignorance.  Try the internet and get an education.

    PS  I am anonymous because I have nothing to sell.  How about you?

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 2:02:59 AM |

    "Wow Fred, you must live in a very small world. Everything I stated has been well established. It isn't my job to remove your ignorance. Try the internet and get an education."

    The burden of proof lies upon the claimant. Support your claims. If you can't, give it up.

    "PS I am anonymous because I have nothing to sell. How about you?"

    No you are anon because you haven't the guts to expose who you are.

  • Stephen

    9/9/2010 2:21:30 AM |

    Anonymous may not be able to back his assertions with robust peer-reviewed studies, but I think the same applies with the slow-burn protocol. My beef with slow-burn is it's quite boring and requires expensive machines and a gym atmosphere, which contrasts with a home garage gym with barbells, a rack and a pullup bar. Much cheaper and much less time-comsuming. Take the time to learn to perform the squat, deadlift and the Olympic lifts correctly, and the strentth gains will come easily without the expenditure of time and expense of the machines. And you will have more fun and satisfaction of working with "real" weights.

  • Anonymous

    9/9/2010 2:36:40 AM |

    I have being doing HIT for about a year and I have been very happy with the results.  I think it is wrong to say there is almost zero risk to having an injury, however.  I have found that proper form is incredibly important.  Working with a trainer reduces the risk significantly, but when working out alone it is much more difficult to make sure you are aligned properly.  Additionally, the type of machines and the way they are cammed also can increase the risk of injury quite a bit.

    My experience has also been that, while it builds lean mass, it has not been a great factor in my weight control.  At 55, with BS issues, I eat no grains and under 100 gms a day of carbs, but gained 4-5 lbs of fat when I upped my caloric intake beyond what I need.

  • skepticaldoc

    9/9/2010 2:45:17 AM |

    I ordered Fred's book last week and it arrived about 6 hours before the arrival of this blog in my inbox. I have been doing resistance training for the past 50+ years and am ready for a change as I enter my 8th decade. In addition to SB, I am reading Body by Science, Power of 10, and The New HIT. I believe there is good research to support the less is more concept. I have already converted my traditional cardio workout to Fartlek/interval training/P.A.C.E. and have dropped 5 lbs of stubborn belly fat in the past 6 weeks.
    Fred: What do you think of the Power of 10 concept?

  • Myron

    9/9/2010 2:53:41 AM |

    I am pleasantly surprised, an exercise technique that goes the extra mile.       I'm am the worst example of  a well trained body builder; it's almost against my religion.     But not entirely, I am a bit active but only if it puts a smile on my face.     That's my first rule for exercise, if you can't do it smiling don't do it at all.    

    I love the ball because I was told that it will completely eliminate the “couch potato” syndrome, that merely sitting still on the ball causes  deep exercise in the core muscles.    Now I can exercise and watch TV, no couches in my house for me.    Maybe that's what they meant when that kept  saying to “stay on the ball”.

    Tai Chi, now that an exercise  for me, slow and graceful, full of  relaxation and bliss.     There is lots of GENUINE POWER in Tai Chi, the Yoga of movement.  

    I did see an interesting study on burning Calories, burning fat vs. burning charbo

    Walking up hill seems to burn more charbo; whereas, walking downhill burns more fat!   I guessing that when the body needs energy quickly it will rely more on carbohydrate metabolism; and, when the energy demand is more protracted  the body may rely upon more fat metabolism.    Kind of make some metabolic sense, we should check it out.

    Funny thing around my house, any hill I walk up, [any altitude gained], I also have to walk back down to get back home.   But with this SLOW BURN, it may tend to burn more fat with a protracted  energy demand compared to the fast energy metabolic requirements of faster more rapid repetitions of muscle movement.

    Sounds good to me, the Tai Chi of weight training, the Tao of  Gym.

    Perhaps one could even do some Tai Chi like movements with strap on weights for the wrists and ankles for a SLOW BURN incorporating the union of  Mind Body and Spirit, the Tao of Gym.

  • Jack M.

    9/9/2010 9:11:31 AM |

    I get my slow burn from yoga. Is that okay?

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 12:03:39 PM |

    "Anonymous may not be able to back his assertions with robust peer-reviewed studies, but I think the same applies with the slow-burn protocol."

    Strawman. Anon made the claim.

    "My beef with slow-burn is it's quite boring and requires expensive machines and a gym atmosphere, which contrasts with a home garage gym with barbells, a rack and a pullup bar. Much cheaper and much less time-comsuming."

    Untrue.

    Take the time to learn to perform the squat, deadlift and the Olympic lifts correctly, and the strentth gains will come easily without the expenditure of time and expense of the machines. And you will have more fun and satisfaction of working with "real" weights.

    "Real" weights? Oh brother.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 12:05:40 PM |

    Jack -

    Yoga may provide some degree of strengthening here and there but it is not specifically designed for such. And strength training will enhance your Yoga!

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 12:10:25 PM |

    Anon -

    What you have discovered is fat gain and loss is all about how you eat and not exercise.  

    Slow Burn is all about proper form. I have a video that takes you through a home based workout using body weight and free weights.

  • Anonymous

    9/9/2010 12:50:37 PM |

    I'd appreciate some fat loss, but my main motivation is to get stronger as I get older.
    I'm an occupational therapist and work with many older adults who have injured themselves (broken hips, concussions) from falling.
    I want to have a healthy, functional old age.
    I like my workout, and am never bored with it.
    I really challenge myself, them its OVER for a week.
    My gym-mates feel the same way.
    And many of them are healthy 70 and 80 year olds who can also do this kind of workout.

    Jeanne

    Jeanne

  • Tommy

    9/9/2010 1:32:35 PM |

    As someone who has trained in many different ways over the years I have found that many methods work. The thing is they work in different ways. The key is to find the method that works for "you" and your "goals."  What I do works great for me but may be overkill for the next person not trying to achieve what I am. At the same time it may not be enough for someone else. There isn't really a better way.  There is only the most beneficial to your specific needs at a particular time. Occasional change is always good (actually I like more than occasional).

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 1:42:41 PM |

    Tommy - You are, as many do, mixing  together specific skill practice with resistance training to improve lean mass.

    FE: An MMA enthusiast requires more than just strength training. He needs skill practice as well in several areas of fighting.

    When exercising to halt lean mass loss and to improve lean tissue (which is the goal of ALL human beings), three things are important to consider:

    Safety
    Effectiveness
    Efficiency

    FE: Using a weight load that is appropriate, lunges are more dangerous than squats and will not provide any benefit over squats.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/9/2010 2:11:19 PM |

    One of the aspects of Fred Hahn's slow burn technique that struck me was, with the motions done properly, there seems to be little opportunity for injury.

    Back when I was a teenager, I used to lift weights like a crazy man. I even had 1 1/2 tons of free weights in my garage. I injured my left elbow, shoulder, and low back with these efforts, injuries that I still feel on occasion today. So I am sensitive to the potential for injury.

    The slow motion seems to erase that potential. Also, Fred also emphasizes no jerking motions and smooth transitions from the positive to the negative motions.

  • Kevin

    9/9/2010 5:37:07 PM |

    Since I have torn rotators and lateral epicondylitis, probably caused by poor lifting technique, I'm looking forward to trying the Hahn method.  

    kevin

  • Anonymous

    9/9/2010 7:13:53 PM |

    http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=23

    Interesting.....

    ~Fedrik Lindstrom

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 7:54:02 PM |

    RE: Colpo - Notice how the comments are set to "off." Truth is they were never on and thus he evaded scrutiny. Here was my response to his rant:

    http://slowburnfitness.com/colpo-counters/

    One of the things he said in his Who is Fred Hahn blog was:

    "His skin looks pasty, his arms lack a muscular defined appearance, and there is no hint of the vascularity that characterizes lean and well-trained bodybuilders and strength athletes."

    As for pasty skin, the picture of me he placed in his article was taken in the winter, I am also a redhead, and as for the vascularity issue, I am not a body-builder nor am I a strength athlete.

    But I am larger than him by a long shot:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/86834534@N00/2202611892/

  • Kindke

    9/9/2010 7:58:58 PM |

    I prefer slow movement myself, usually 3 seconds concentric and 2 seconds eccentric.

    There is evidence that your muscles adapt to however you train them, if you train them with explosive movements then that is what you will primarily get better at.

    Having looked at alot of research on hypertrophy it would seem volume is pretty much the primary determinant of gains. Volume is directly proportional to time under tension and weight moved for a given tempo of lifting.

    I think overall resistence training has too many health benefits to pass up. Everyone should be doing it if able.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 10:31:13 PM |

    Anon you are being rude. Why? Why name call? How does that serve anyone?

    First of all, I have said that athletes need to practice their sport skills and not just strength train to be better at their sports.

    The concept of neuroplasticity or cortical re-mapping has nothing to do with making improvements to the muscular system via resistance training - only to learning new skills. That's why you can become exponentially better at a skill early on like in Olympic lifting. You get stronger quite fast in the first 6 months to a year because you are learning a new skill. But as time goes by that slows.

    I know what the SAID principle is. Q: Do you think baseball players need to swing their bats in many different ways to be a good hitter? Do they need to change their stances? Quite to the contrary.

    I haven't "discredited" any other training techniques. I may have criticized them as dangerous or inefficient but that is it. Many systems work.  

    You have yet to cite any evidence to support any of your statements.

    Show us some good science to suggest that slow training builds muscle and faster speeds build strength. The statement is, in and of itself, illogical. Slow training builds muscle and not strength? This makes little sense.

    And please provide evidence regarding "lack of harmony" using machines to build strength and muscle. Body builders the world over use machines on a daily basis.

    Again, please provide evidence to support your claims.

  • Stephen

    9/9/2010 10:48:18 PM |

    Fred Hahn looks very strong in that photo, no doubt stronger than Anthony Colpo, though I think Colpo is more interested in sculpting his body for a lean, cut look, rather than building size and bulk. Doing both at the same time of course is seldom achieved without a little help from performance enhancing drugs, unless one has the genetic predisposition for easy gains.

    I've read _Body By Science_ by Doug McGuff, and I think he argues quite compellingly for the efficacy of the super slow method for building strength. I do think, however, he did not adequately reference with studies in the literature his assertions that non-super slow methods contribute to joint pain and deterioration. I would agree that super slow lifting is probably
    safer than the Olympic lifts, especially if not done with proper form, but performing the Olympic lifts, as least for me, is much more gratifying and fun than the slow, grueling, and yes, agonizing lifts of the super slow method.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/9/2010 11:41:05 PM |

    Anon - I am not trying to fight. Cool off. I'm not wasting any more of Dr. Davis time with this.

  • Lori Miller

    9/10/2010 12:43:25 AM |

    I've been doing Slow Burn for a few months now. One thing I like about it is that it doesn't cause me any joint pain. Before, I was using a different system and even though there was no herky-jerky movement, I was at the end of what my joints, not muscles, would take. SB, done at home with free weights in my case, really puts my through the paces. I'm a 118-pound woman; if you're big and strong, you may need to use gym equipment. A few months ago, Fred was kind enough to give me some tips for home workouts. They are in the comments on my blog for anyone who'd like to read them:

    http://relievemypain.blogspot.com/2010/07/exercise-without-joint-pain.html

    I'm a serious amateur dancer and I've found that strength training has helped me dance the way I want to. It's a prime example of the idea that strength training and skill training are two different things. Dancing well requires lots of classes and frequent practice outside of any other exercise. Even though I do slow-moving weight training, it's helped me to dance at all speeds: sitting into sugar steps to the slow stuff, swing-outs to "Jumpin' at the Woodside," and everything in between. An aside: when I first read about baseball players practicing with a heavier bat than they normally use, it struck me as odd. It seemed to me that swinging the heavier bat would be a different experience, just like dancing with a different partner.

    Re: aerobic exercise, FWIW, I've never noticed dancers getting thinner as they progressed.

  • Roscoe

    9/10/2010 11:57:16 AM |

    LOL, that ape Colpo just loves going to "war" with people.  Anything that will get him attention and give him a way to release some of his inner anger.

  • Anonymous

    9/10/2010 2:11:30 PM |

    Hey Fred,

    You mention Olympic lifts but those are ballistic style lifts that are meant to be performed in a quick and explosive fashion.

    I can't really imagine anyone performing push jerks or hang snatches using a slow burn cadence.

    Mike

  • Fred Hahn

    9/10/2010 2:24:22 PM |

    "I can't really imagine anyone performing push jerks or hang snatches using a slow burn cadence."

    Nor I. I don't understand what you are suggesting.

  • Anonymous

    9/10/2010 2:50:21 PM |

    You posted this:

    "Take the time to learn to perform the squat, deadlift and the Olympic lifts correctly, and the strentth gains will come easily without the expenditure of time and expense of the machines. And you will have more fun and satisfaction of working with "real" weights."

    Or were you just suggesting these lifts in general, not necessarily recommending them for Slow Burn.

    Mike

  • Fred Hahn

    9/10/2010 3:08:19 PM |

    I  didn't post that.

  • Anonymous

    9/10/2010 4:13:54 PM |

    Are there any slow burn trainers in the UK?

    Nina

    ps sorry I can't get the ID thing to work on my computer

  • Anonymous

    9/11/2010 3:53:10 AM |

    I'm a slow burn devotee, but still haven't been convinced that there is a lot of science to back up the claims.  

    Here is a contradictory set of claims to help us with confirmation bias:

    http://www.strength-training-woman.com/superslow-strength-training.html

  • Fred Hahn

    9/11/2010 1:45:56 PM |

    Anon, the link you provided:

    http://www.strength-training-woman.com/superslow-strength-training.html

    discusses a study that used only 40% 1RM for the SS group and 80% 1RM for the traditional group if I'm recalling it properly. IOW, it is a flawed study. You can't compare heavy weights to light weights.

    And Slow Burn is not Superslow BTW.

    Dr. Wayne Westoctt has done three studies on slow training vs. conventional 2 up 4 down training and in each, the slow groups gained more strength.

    In these studies, Westcott kept the time to fatigue equal. No other study comparing slow to conventional rep speed have done this.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/11/2010 1:49:39 PM |

    Heres is an abstract for one of the SS studies:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11447355

  • Anonymous

    9/11/2010 3:01:35 PM |

    Fred, you seem like someone with a long history of training for physique and strength. Cool.
    What kind of numbers have you reached on some barbell lifts, since we could compare a deadlift with any other deadlift? Thanks!

  • Fred Hahn

    9/11/2010 3:08:19 PM |

    Anon said:

    "Fred, you seem like someone with a long history of training for physique and strength. Cool. What kind of numbers have you reached on some barbell lifts, since we could compare a deadlift with any other deadlift? Thanks!"

    I don't do barbell lifts so I have no idea.

    As 49 I have 12% BF, weigh 175 and, if I may say so humbly, am in VG shape for my age. My blood numbers are near perfect. I've got some bad knee arthritis from 20+ years of martial arts but other than that I'm happy with my physique and health.

    What a person can lift with free weights is only important if you care about these things which I don't. I've had a few people some to my gym who could out bench press me and out squat me but were not stronger than me in my machines.

    There is a skill specificity to everything.

    The bottom line is - how much fat do you have and how much lean mass? How healthy are you when a skilled and aware physician like Dr. Davis gives you a thorough once over.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/11/2010 3:19:19 PM |

    Another Anon sent this as proof that free weights are better than machines:

    http://www.nsca-lift.org/HotTopic/download/Machine%20vs%20Free%20Weights.pdf

    This paper is just one persons opinion and is fraught with errors.

    FE: The author states:

    "For example,lifting a suitcase or bag of groceries is basically the same as lifting a dumbbell or barbell from the floor of a weight room."

    No it's not. And it depends on how you do either. He also states:

    "So, in reality, it doesn’t really matter how the loading is placed on the muscle just as long as it is sufficient to stimulate the muscle to be active."

    Here he means that it doesn't matter if you use free weights or machines to grow muscle. So is he suggesting that if I increase my muscle mass by 10 pounds using machines I'll still have trouble lifting that suitcase off the floor 'cuz I didn't use dumbbells?

    This Anon said:

    "People shouldn't just believe some so-called expert on line or in some book, they should investigate for themselves like I'm suggesting you do."

    Yet, this Anon uses a so-called on-line expert as proof that I am mistaken. Interesting.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/11/2010 3:19:45 PM |

    Another Anon sent this as proof that free weights are better than machines:

    http://www.nsca-lift.org/HotTopic/download/Machine%20vs%20Free%20Weights.pdf

    This paper is just one persons opinion and is fraught with errors.

    FE: The author states:

    "For example,lifting a suitcase or bag of groceries is basically the same as lifting a dumbbell or barbell from the floor of a weight room."

    No it's not. And it depends on how you do either. He also states:

    "So, in reality, it doesn’t really matter how the loading is placed on the muscle just as long as it is sufficient to stimulate the muscle to be active."

    Here he means that it doesn't matter if you use free weights or machines to grow muscle. So is he suggesting that if I increase my muscle mass by 10 pounds using machines I'll still have trouble lifting that suitcase off the floor 'cuz I didn't use dumbbells?

    This Anon said:

    "People shouldn't just believe some so-called expert on line or in some book, they should investigate for themselves like I'm suggesting you do."

    Yet, this Anon uses a so-called on-line expert as proof that I am mistaken. Interesting.

  • Anonymous

    9/11/2010 4:06:44 PM |

    Jesus Christ Fred, get over it. You are becoming a Blog Hog. STOP IT!!!!!

  • Fred Hahn

    9/11/2010 4:49:21 PM |

    "Jesus Christ Fred, get over it. You are becoming a Blog Hog. STOP IT!!!!!"

    I am answering people's questions Anon. And this is not your blog. If Bill wants me to stop answering Q's I will.

    The other Anon - no I don't know anyone in the UK. But there is a person in Ireland named Paul Hurley. Look him up on FB.

  • praguestepchild

    9/11/2010 9:38:47 PM |

    Fred, I'm wondering how your techniques differ from Body by Science? I'm not a strict adherant to BBS but I've been more or less following the principles for around 8 months with very good results.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/11/2010 9:45:22 PM |

    "Fred, I'm wondering how your techniques differ from Body by Science? I'm not a strict adherant to BBS but I've been more or less following the principles for around 8 months with very good results."

    Body by Science is for the most part Ken Hutchins Superslow. I don't subscribe to a 10/10 rep cadence nor do I think that a once a week training regimen is optimal. I also do not think that 3-5 exercises per session is optimal.

  • praguestepchild

    9/11/2010 10:40:52 PM |

    "Body by Science is for the most part Ken Hutchins Superslow. I don't subscribe to a 10/10 rep cadence nor do I think that a once a week training regimen is optimal. I also do not think that 3-5 exercises per session is optimal."

    I was under the impression BBS was based on the old school of Mike Mentzer, but if you consider it a rip-off of Superslow I'll take your word for it.

  • Anonymous

    9/11/2010 11:46:09 PM |

    Hi Fred,

    I'm the 'other' anon (can't remember my google password!).  I appreciate your comments here and I'm sure Dr. Davis would turn off your comments if he didn't appreciate them.  Nice thing about a blog is no one is actually forced to read the comments.  

    You mentioned the differences you have with the BBS procedures, but didn't mention what you consider optimal.  Could you do so?  I've been happy with once a week after having done more traditional workouts 3x a week.  Time is an issue, and I try not to do weights to close to when I will play golf.

    Thanks for the earlier ref.
    Nick

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 1:33:13 AM |

    Fred is a no-nothing snakeoil salesman. You need to spend lots of money for his books and in his gym in order to exercise safely! Truly his is the only effective method! He has "Serious Strength" yet nearly shat himself trying to press a 135lb barbell.

    Admit you're a puss Fred, it's ok most people are. You don't know everything and you aren't strong, not for a 49 yo man, not for a 49 yo women.

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 4:54:53 AM |

    Fred, I asked about a free weight deadlift b/c even though there is some skill to it, like any lift...  as an expert I'd expect a nice number from you there, something that shows your years of work in a esoteric method bore fruit. I'd think you''d welcome the chance do demonstrate real results and not just cite studies from your peculiar method.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 11:40:41 AM |

    "I was under the impression BBS was based on the old school of Mike Mentzer, but if you consider it a rip-off of Superslow I'll take your word for it."

    I didn't say it was a "rip-off." I said it is essentially SS. 10 up 10 down. Which if course is what the old school body builders used to call MC/MM - muscular contractions with measured movements. See here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/86834534@N00/2656040277/lightbox/

    Body by science is more of a book to dig deeper into the science behind slow rep training (either SS, SB, MC/MM, whatever) and how it is a valid and powerful way to increase strength, cardiovascular health and muscle mass.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 11:47:31 AM |

    You're welcome Nick. You said:

    "You mentioned the differences you have with the BBS procedures, but didn't mention what you consider optimal. Could you do so? I've been happy with once a week after having done more traditional workouts 3x a week. Time is an issue, and I try not to do weights to close to when I will play golf."

    I find that a once a week training regimen barely keeps me at the strength level I have now. It's too little stimulus. I see this with clients too for the most part.

    When I am consistent with a 2-3X a week program, I seem to get better results ITO a higher level of strength, a tighter, fuller look to my physique and I feel more flexible.

    I usually do 6-12 exercises per session. The exercise itself dictates the rep duration - longer stroke exercises take longer, shorter ones, shorter.

    Rep times are usually 40 seconds to 70 seconds. I'll tell you when I ditched the long sets times of 90+ seconds that is when I started to see better growth. At 49 I don't expect much if any more growth (boo-hoo).

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 12:03:05 PM |

    I usually don't respond to this sort of comment but I will today because I, well, feel like it:

    "Fred is a no-nothing snakeoil salesman. You need to spend lots of money for his books and in his gym in order to exercise safely!"

    No, you can do the SB program in the comfort of your own home or gym - that is why I wrote the book - a book you can get at your library or buy used for about $10. The book helps people learn how to use weights safely and effectively.

    "Truly his is the only effective method! He has "Serious Strength" yet nearly shat himself trying to press a 135lb barbell."

    I was practicing C&J on an uneven surface with a bar that had uneven weights on it. The pressing part is easy. At that time I had just started going to an Olympic lifting  
    club in Queens and was trying to do the press using perfect form which makes doing the lift much harder that just lifting and pressing.

    "Admit you're a puss Fred, it's ok most people are. You don't know everything and you aren't strong, not for a 49 yo man, not for a 49 yo women."

    First, women can be very strong. I know several who are indeed as strong and stronger than I am. One woman at Lost Battalion Olympic  lifting club was far stronger than many of the men who were larger than she was. You're statement is misogynistic.  

    Whoever you are you are quite rude. Good luck in your life behaving like as you do. I think you'll go far.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 12:27:13 PM |

    "Fred, I asked about a free weight deadlift b/c even though there is some skill to it, like any lift... as an expert I'd expect a nice number from you there, something that shows your years of work in a esoteric method bore fruit. I'd think you''d welcome the chance do demonstrate real results and not just cite studies from your peculiar method."

    I know a lot of people who put a lot of stake in free weight lifts. And that's fine. They are fun and rewarding. Truth is I can't remember the last time I did a dead lift exercise - stiff legged or sumo style.

    To suggest as I think you are doing that machine lifting results are somehow unreal and free weight lifts are "real" is really not quite true. I invite you to my gym to see how "strong" you are in my realm.

    And what's the difference anyhow? I'm lean, muscular and healthy. What else is there really?

    Dead lifts are also a dicey exercise if you have low back issues as I do. I have an extra vertebra at L5 and my L4 and L5 are fused solid. So anything that forces my spine into a position of flexion is asking for serious trouble.

    I have done 12 slow chins at a body weight of 175. I take about 5-8 secs on the lift and lower. I can also do 20 or slow slow push ups. Same tempo more or less.

    Lifting weights as I do is not "esoteric." Slow training is meant for everyone. I wrote two books for the gen pop not for some secret group of devotees. SB is not secretive or private. I don't understand your use of the word esoteric.

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 12:58:25 PM |

    I will be honest. I have never heard of the SB until this thread was hijacked. Regardless of the product, I am very put off by the way this has become a FH dog and pony show. This is not the usual Dr. D blog that many of us enjoy. FH, Dr. D does not monitor nor censor his blog, so you would not know if he thought you were a complete idiot versus an angel from Heaven. Until the past few days I had never heard of you. I wish I could still say the same. Scroll through the comments and look at how you have dominated. Thank goodness a new thread is up that has nothing to do with the SB, so maybe you will become as you were before--invisible. Poor marketing strategy on your part.

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 1:52:37 PM |

    In case I forgot to mention it, for Seattle folks, I train at Ideal Exercise, with Greg Anderson (and Anne Marie).

    Jeanne

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 2:14:39 PM |

    Fred, I didn't say what you did wasn't real. But you are selling something so as a discerning potential buyer, I am looking for some good evidence of effect, something demonstrable in a way that can be compared. Have you tried deadlifting?
    What about weighted chins? You mention slow chins but how about weighted chins?

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 2:33:43 PM |

    "I will be honest. I have never heard of the SB until this thread was hijacked."

    Well I never said Slow Burn was a household name. And people were asking me questions. How does my answering them "hijack" the comments section?  The blog is about Slow Burn isn't it? The true hijackers are the rude and offensive people that rather than try and learn something, spew forth ad hominem attacks.

    "Regardless of the product, I am very put off by the way this has become a FH dog and pony show. This is not the usual Dr. D blog that many of us enjoy."

    This is the comments section of a blog titled "Fred Hahn's Slow Burn." Several polite people have already thanked me for my comments. Your opinion seem to be in the minority.  

    "FH, Dr. D does not monitor nor censor his blog, so you would not know if he thought you were a complete idiot versus an angel from Heaven."

    You are wrong about that but I won't go into why.  

    "Until the past few days I had never heard of you. I wish I could still say the same. Scroll through the comments and look at how you have dominated. Thank goodness a new thread is up that has nothing to do with the SB, so maybe you will become as you were before--invisible. Poor marketing strategy on your part."

    You're entitled to your opinion. Whenever a person I write about on my blog takes the time and effort to add his or her comments in the comments section, I always welcome them as long as they are civil and trying to help - as I am.You sound like a very angry and pent up individual.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 2:34:51 PM |

    Greg Anderson is a top notch trainer and great all around guy.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 2:48:12 PM |

    "Fred, I didn't say what you did wasn't real. But you are selling something so as a discerning potential buyer, I am looking for some good evidence of effect, something demonstrable in a way that can be compared."

    I am not here to sell a anything at all. I sent a link to a study RE slow training and its efficacy. BTW, you can download my free Slow Burn ebook by entering your email address on my website.

    "Have you tried deadlifting?"

    Sure, years ago. I don't recall what I was using - 200 something for reps. This was combined with squats, leg ext, leg press, etc. I never cared to use max poundages.

    Here is a link to my friend Doug Holland who trains in a similar fashion as I do.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwmuk4N1Dv4

    The difference he practices power lifting and I don't.

    "What about weighted chins? You mention slow chins but how about weighted chins?"

    Yes I have done weighted chins. I have no recollection of what I did. They are cumbersome and inefficient  compared to my MedX pulldown. Here is a vid:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGaVU8oLcS0

    I'm about 12 pounds heavier in the video than I am now. The muscles that are used in the chin are the exact same as the ones used in the pull downs obviously. There is not need to use weighted chins when I have this machine.

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 5:50:08 PM |

    Fred: "And what's the difference anyhow? I'm lean, muscular and healthy. What else is there really?"

    Well, there's strong, for one.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 6:30:33 PM |

    "Well, there's strong, for one."

    So do 12 slow chins. Then do 20 slow pushups. Then come back here and spout.

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 6:31:58 PM |

    Fred, you're being argumentative.
    What about that guy who asked about weighted chins?
    Do you have some video of your slow chins?

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 6:33:35 PM |

    Fred, I found your forum. It appears you have been challenged before but have not met the challenge:
    http://seriousstrength.yuku.com/topic/1300/t/Bench-Challenge.html?page=5

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 7:00:40 PM |

    "Fred, you're being argumentative.
    What about that guy who asked about weighted chins? Do you have some video of your slow chins?"

    I'm being argumentative. Right.

    No I don't have a video of slow chins. Does he have a video of anything he does? I've already posted one of me and a pic. His turn.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 7:02:17 PM |

    "Fred, I found your forum. It appears you have been challenged before but have not met the challenge:
    http://seriousstrength.yuku.com/topic/1300/t/Bench-Challenge.html?page=5"

    I created that challenge BTW.

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 7:29:11 PM |

    Fred responded to a question about his deadlift with:
    "I don't do barbell lifts so I have no idea. "

    But later Fred talked of lifting barbells with a team in Queens. Surely you remember some weights you lifted then? Your best lifts, no?
    And there was talk of a 135lb press or something. So what weights did you get to, Fred?

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 7:29:40 PM |

    Hey Fred I see how you created that challenge on your forum, but you didn't compete. So why did you shy away?

    Also I see you making claims about your slow mo method so I expect people to want to see some proof in a manner that shows demonstration in another area. Experienced gymnasts, for example, are known for benching +2xbw in their first session. So I'd expect your expert and experienced self to be able to show something moderately impressive in a new arena  right off the bat.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 7:54:15 PM |

    "Hey Fred I see how you created that challenge on your forum, but you didn't compete. So why did you shy away?"

    I got busy with other more important endeavors plus my wife thought I was an idiot for suggesting it. She warned that if I got injured she would have ZERO sympathy.She was right. I should not get suckered into these juvenile tests of strength.  

    Also, my web board was getting cluttered with trolls. As you can see I have not been there for months. I will be taking it down soon.

    "Also I see you making claims about your slow mo method so I expect people to want to see some proof in a manner that shows demonstration in another area. Experienced gymnasts, for example, are known for benching +2xbw in their first session. So I'd expect your expert and experienced self to be able to show something moderately impressive in a new arena right off the bat."

    Why would you expect this? What is the fixation with demonstrations of strength with free weights?

    Here is a free weight grip vid:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77GRTfIYU0

    I am not nor have I ever claimed to be a strength athlete. I use weights to improve my health, keep me lean and strong. I have several videos on YT of me training.

    If this is insufficient for you, what can I say?

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 8:03:31 PM |

    When you call yourself "seriousstrength" on your own forum and on youtube, people might expect you know about building real strength!
    But I guess you like them to have that illusion, until it comes time to demonstrate it, which you then shy away from, even with a lift that could be done safely.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 8:05:47 PM |

    "But later Fred talked of lifting barbells with a team in Queens. Surely you remember some weights you lifted then? Your best lifts, no?
    And there was talk of a 135lb press or something. So what weights did you get to, Fred?"

    I joined Lost Battalion Hall - an Olympic lifting Club in Queens. I went to learn from the pros how to do O lifting. I only went a handful of times as it was a haul to get there and back (over 2 hours) and at the last session attempting to snatch 100 pounds or so (which is a pretty light weight) something in my shoulder popped. Snatching was very difficult for my shoulders.

    Before I left I was cleaning 175 - after only 5 sessions. My low back using strict form made the lift difficult. Every single one of the lifters save for the kids were sporting injuries of one sort or another. I have to train dozens of people a week and could not afford getting hurt.

    I should have started younger because I really liked the lifting and the people I met there. especially Coach Len.

    My knees were also an issue. Due to 20+ years of martial arts my right knee can't fully bend so I cant get into a deep squat. One coach told me that if I couldn't get into a deep squat, I couldn't O lift.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 8:12:35 PM |

    "When you call yourself "seriousstrength" on your own forum and on youtube, people might expect you know about building real strength!"

    The name of my gym is Serious Strength - I don't call myself that. And the strength we develop in the typical person is quite impressive. We've put hundreds of pounds of muscle on people who would otherwise have gotten weaker and frailer as they aged. We have also given a lot of people greater self confidence and courage from feeling stronger, leaner and more muscular. Strength is not all about lifting barbells off of the floor.

    "But I guess you like them to have that illusion, until it comes time to demonstrate it, which you then shy away from, even with a lift that could be done safely."

    You have a very narrow reference point RE: strength Anon as well as a clear underlying sense of insecurity. You should broaden your scope. Put up some videos on YT of yourself why doncha?

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 8:37:44 PM |

    I have to say, I've read this thread almost as one looks at an accident along the roadside - i.e., I just can't help myself, even though poor taste and unnecessary goading are rampant.  A question to Dr. Davis: I'd be interested in hearing from you why you're interested in Mr. Hahn's approach.  Is it simply your sense that it will minimize the risk of injury?  Or, is there something else?  Specifically, I'm curious about the science behind the approach (beyond injury minimization - a point which I believe is exaggerated).  I've just started reading McGuff's Body by Science; it's interesting, but I find the idea of 15-20 second repetitions incredibly unappealing.  

    Will (Ann Arbor, Michigan)

  • Anonymous

    9/12/2010 8:42:40 PM |

    Hi Fred,

    Just found this blog post, hope you are still around to comment.  I have been trying to get my parents back into training and this looks like a safer way to do it.

    My question, though, is for me.  In the abstract of the study you cited, it says --

    CONCLUSIONS: Super-Slow training is an effective method for middle-aged and older adults to increase strength.

    So is this type of training something you would also recommend for someone like me (late 20's, compete in judo), or is it really just intended for older people for whom more traditional wieght training is too risky?

    Thanks.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 9:58:47 PM |

    "Just found this blog post, hope you are still around to comment. I have been trying to get my parents back into training and this looks like a safer way to do it."

    Good for you! Caring for your parents is commendable.

    "My question, though, is for me. In the abstract of the study you cited, it says -- CONCLUSIONS: Super-Slow training is an effective method for middle-aged and older adults to increase strength. "

    It concluded that because that is who they tested.

    "So is this type of training something you would also recommend for someone like me (late 20's, compete in judo), or is it really just intended for older people for whom more traditional wieght training is too risky?"

    It is for everyone and will improve your Judo due to the increase in strength. My daughter started training at age 6!

  • Fred Hahn

    9/12/2010 9:59:15 PM |

    "Just found this blog post, hope you are still around to comment. I have been trying to get my parents back into training and this looks like a safer way to do it."

    Good for you! Caring for your parents is commendable.

    "My question, though, is for me. In the abstract of the study you cited, it says -- CONCLUSIONS: Super-Slow training is an effective method for middle-aged and older adults to increase strength. "

    It concluded that because that is who they tested.

    "So is this type of training something you would also recommend for someone like me (late 20's, compete in judo), or is it really just intended for older people for whom more traditional wieght training is too risky?"

    It is for everyone and will improve your Judo due to the increase in strength. My daughter started training at age 6!

  • Anonymous

    9/13/2010 1:19:12 AM |

    Lordy Lordy Grab a bottle, hunker down and pray for daylight.

  • Anonymous

    9/13/2010 7:10:00 PM |

    This is a common train wreck when SlowBurn is about. asked to demonstrate some of the strength he claims to be an expert in building, the response is usually rhetoric and evasion, with some attack.
    I think Fred has his heart in the good place and his "lifting" is good for people who  value safety over performance. This kind of training, however, has no record of success in athletic fields, despite being around for a while.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/13/2010 9:40:59 PM |

    "This is a common train wreck when SlowBurn is about. Asked to demonstrate some of the strength he claims to be an expert in building, the response is usually rhetoric and evasion, with some attack."

    ****No, I told you that I have about 12 videos on YT. I also mentioned the chins and pushups I can perform. It is folks like you who have yet to put up any videos or told us your feats of strength.

    "I think Fred has his heart in the good place and his "lifting" is good for people who value safety over performance."

    ***Partly yes - safety first. Do you mean to imply that I should not make safety a priority? I add muscle, strength and vitality to the typical person. That is what we specialize in.

    "This kind of training, however, has no record of success in athletic fields, despite being around for a while."

    There are scores of successful athletes who rarely if ever lift weights at all. So what's your point?

    It's not about sports performance anyway  - can't you understand that simple fact? How many times do I have to say this?

    The Serious Strength goal for all clients is:

    Added lean mass (muscle, bone).

    When you achieve this you become:

    Stronger
    Leaner
    Healthier
    More functional
    More self confident

    The end.

  • Anonymous

    9/16/2010 3:46:18 PM |

    "It's not about sports performance anyway - can't you understand that simple fact? How many times do I have to say this? "

    Fred, is it true you once claimed to be able to increase the performance of top US Olympic weightlifters with your exercise techniques?

  • Fred Hahn

    9/16/2010 3:52:17 PM |

    "Fred, is it true you once claimed to be able to increase the performance of top US Olympic weightlifters with your exercise techniques?"

    Holy cow. I think I know who you are now.

    Anyway, yes. If I can make the O O lifter stronger, I can make him or her able to lift more weight than they are currently doing.

    I think that I could make many O lifters stronger than they are now. This means that with more muscle, they will lift more weight. Most O lifters do not focus on building muscle just on O lifting. This is of course most important but not enough.

    So if I put 10 pounds of lean mass on a current O lifter, his poundages would go up.

    But lifting weights in order to improve lean mass is not about performance! I don't care how much weight I can dead lift or bench or squat. Who gives a hoot. People who only coin collect could care less about stamps.

  • Anonymous

    9/17/2010 2:43:43 AM |

    Fred Hahn has absolutely no place on a blog that is scientific in nature.  It's disappointing to see him called a fitness expert and to see Dr. Davis taking any of his nonsense seriously.

    If the only redeeming quality of his workout is a seemingly decreased chance of injury, then take that to its logical conclusion and just do isometric holds.

    Or stick to what's proven, which is not superslow movements.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/17/2010 11:00:17 AM |

    "Fred Hahn has absolutely no place on a blog that is scientific in nature. It's disappointing to see him called a fitness expert and to see Dr. Davis taking any of his nonsense seriously."

    Coming from someone who is anonymous this doesn't mean much.  

    "If the only redeeming quality of his workout is a seemingly decreased chance of injury, then take that to its logical conclusion and just do isometric holds."

    Then you have to use much heavier weights and that is not safer. So much for your logic.

    "Or stick to what's proven, which is not superslow movements."

    Actually it is proven. And Slow Burn is not Super Slow. You need to do some reading, put up some pix and vids of you doing something and take a course in basic manners.

  • Anonymous

    9/18/2010 2:16:17 AM |

    And there's a typical Fred response.

    "Post your pictures or your lifts."

    I would explain ad hominem to you, but I would be wasting my time.

    "You're anonymous therefore you don't matter."

    No.  I'm anonymous because I've seen what a psycho you act like online and choose not to be a target of that.  Not showing a name doesn't invalidate points being made.

    BTW, you'd think that you would at least have an impressive physique to keep asking others to post theirs.  You barely look like you work out.

    I implore Dr. Davis to not mention you and your nonsense again.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 1:30:23 PM |

    Anon - Let's face it - you've criticized my character, my strength and my physique in, truth be told, a very rude and harsh manner. If Bill should be banning anyone it's you. I chimed in to help people understand what Slow Burn strength training is and what it can do for your health and fitness.

    I suggested that you put up some pics and/or vids of yourself because of all your criticisms of me. As they say in the trades "put up or shut up." I on the other hand, HAVE posted pics and vids for all to see.

    "I would explain ad hominem to you, but I would be wasting my time."

    Yes Anon it would be since I already know what it means. You on the other hand apparently do not.

    "No. I'm anonymous because I've seen what a psycho you act like online and choose not to be a target of that. Not showing a name doesn't invalidate points being made."

    Points? You think you've made valid points? Like what pray tell? That slow burn training doesn't work? That I'm not experienced in strength training? That I don'y look like I work out? Yes, you've nailed these alright.  

    And you're calling ME a "psycho?" What do you call all of your ad hominem and rude posts towards me? I'd explain and define the word psycho for you but it would be a waste of time.

    "BTW, you'd think that you would at least have an impressive physique to keep asking others to post theirs. You barely look like you work out."

    Right. Here's another just because I am am bored this Saturday morning and you amuse me:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/86834534@N00/5000667169/lightbox/

    "I implore Dr. Davis to not mention you and your nonsense again."

    If you keep this up Anon, I think it is your IP address that will be banned not mine.

    Here's a question for you Anon - give me one, just one physiological reason why Slow Burn, high intensity strength training doesn't work to build muscle.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 1:36:54 PM |

    Anon - Let's face it - you've criticized my character, my strength and my physique in, truth be told, a very rude and harsh manner. I chimed in to help people understand what Slow Burn strength training is and what it can do for your health and fitness.

    I suggested that you put up some pics and/or vids of yourself because of all your criticisms of me. As they say in the trades "put up or shut up." I on the other hand, HAVE posted pics and vids for all to see.

    "I would explain ad hominem to you, but I would be wasting my time."

    Yes Anon it would be since I already know what it means. You on the other hand apparently do not.

    "No. I'm anonymous because I've seen what a psycho you act like online and choose not to be a target of that. Not showing a name doesn't invalidate points being made."

    Points? You think you've made valid points? Like what pray tell? That slow burn training doesn't work? That I'm not experienced in strength training? That I don'y look like I work out? Yes, you've nailed these alright.  

    And you're calling ME a "psycho?" What do you call all of your ad hominem and rude posts towards me? I'd explain and define the word psycho for you but it would be a waste of time.

    "I implore Dr. Davis to not mention you and your nonsense again."

    If you keep this up Anon, I think it is your IP address that will be banned not mine.

    Here's a question for you Anon - give me one, just one physiological reason why Slow Burn, high intensity strength training doesn't work to build muscle.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 1:40:23 PM |

    Additionally Anon said:

    "BTW, you'd think that you would at least have an impressive physique to keep asking others to post theirs. You barely look like you work out."

    Right. Here's another just because I am am bored this Saturday morning and you amuse me (you'll have to cut and paste this into a browser):

    http://www.flickr.com
    /photos/86834534@N00/
    5000667169/lightbox/

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 1:46:44 PM |

    Here's another shot just for the fun of it:

    http://www.flickr.com/
    photos/86834534@N00/
    5001308788/lightbox/

  • Anonymous

    9/18/2010 6:27:30 PM |

    People should Google you to make up their own mind.  The common denominators in your interactions with others are a lack of understanding of basic science, statistics, and applicability of scientific studies.  You generally act offended right away and refuse to answer anymore questions because of it.  Somewhere in there you'll resort to ad hominem attacks and ask for pictures and videos of other people while posting your dark and/or mostly clothes pictures while making excuses (I have bad genetics, bad knees, etc.) for your lack of strength.

    If Dr. Davis wishes to ban me from posting the truth about you, that's fine with me.  It's his blog, but like him, I look for truth amidst hucksters.

    Like I said, let people Google you and your previous interactions with others and make up their own minds.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 7:08:48 PM |

    "People should Google you to make up their own mind. The common denominators in your interactions with others are a lack of understanding of basic science, statistics, and applicability of scientific studies."

    Now you're lying. That's bad. And even more ad hominem attacks? Be specific Anon. What exactly are you referring to? But you can't be can you?

    "You generally act offended right away and refuse to answer anymore questions because of it."

    Now you're lying yet again. For shame Anon, for shame.  

    "Somewhere in there you'll resort to ad hominem attacks and ask for pictures and videos of other people while posting your dark and/or mostly clothes pictures while making excuses (I have bad genetics, bad knees, etc.) for your lack of strength."

    But I don't lack strength. And of course I'm going to be clothed in public pictures. I don't have professional body builder photos as I am not a body builder. But my pix are still a world better than none at all.

    You Anon clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder. I humbly suggest talking to someone about it.

    "If Dr. Davis wishes to ban me from posting the truth about you, that's fine with me. It's his blog, but like him, I look for truth amidst hucksters."

    Once again Anon be specific. You're good at tossing out broad labels but really bad when it comes to providing specific evidence.

    At my gym we train hundreds of people a week - New Yorkers - who are thrilled with the results they are getting. I've been in biz for 12 years and if what I teach didn't bring results I'd have been out of business long ago.

    "Like I said, let people Google you and your previous interactions with others and make up their own minds."

    I don't think anyone is going to waste their time. You seem to be the only one with a problem.

    And you didn't answer my question Anon - Give me one, just one physiological reason why my Slow Burn HIT strength training program can't work. C'mon - let us all see how much YOU know.

    And post a pic while you're at it. My guess is that you aren't half as built as I am. There! I've stooped to your level as you anticipated. I didn't want you to be too disappointed.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 7:10:06 PM |

    "The common denominators in your interactions with others... applicability of scientific studies."

    Now you're lying. And even more ad hominem attacks? Be specific Anon. What exactly are you referring to? But you can't be can you?

    "You generally act offended right away and refuse to answer anymore questions because of it."

    Now you're lying yet again. For shame Anon, for shame.  

    "Somewhere in there you'll resort to ad hominem attacks and ask for pictures and videos of other people while posting your dark and/or mostly clothes pictures while making excuses (I have bad genetics, bad knees, etc.) for your lack of strength."

    But I don't lack strength. And of course I'm going to be clothed in public pictures. I don't have professional body builder photos as I am not a body builder. But my pix are still a world better than none at all.

    You Anon clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder. I humbly suggest talking to someone about it.

    "If Dr. Davis wishes to ban me from posting the truth about you, that's fine with me. It's his blog, but like him, I look for truth amidst hucksters."

    Once again Anon be specific. You're good at tossing out broad labels but really bad when it comes to providing specific evidence.

    At my gym we train hundreds of people a week - New Yorkers - who are thrilled with the results they are getting. I've been in biz for 12 years and if what I teach didn't bring results I'd have been out of business long ago.

    "Like I said, let people Google you and your previous interactions with others and make up their own minds."

    I don't think anyone is going to waste their time. You seem to be the only one with a problem.

    And you didn't answer my question Anon - Give me one, just one physiological reason why my Slow Burn HIT strength training program can't work. C'mon - let us all see how much YOU know.

    And post a pic while you're at it. My guess is that you aren't half as built as I am. There! I've stooped to your level as you anticipated. I didn't want you to be too disappointed.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 7:11:01 PM |

    "The common denominators in your interactions with others... applicability of scientific studies."

    Now you're lying. And even more ad hominem attacks? Be specific Anon. What exactly are you referring to? But you can't be can you?

    "You generally act offended right away and refuse to answer anymore questions because of it."

    Now you're lying yet again. For shame Anon, for shame.  

    "Somewhere in there you'll...for your lack of strength."

    And I don't lack strength. And of course I'm going to be clothed in public pictures. I don't have professional body builder photos as I am not a body builder. But my pix are still a world better than none at all.

    You Anon clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder. I humbly suggest talking to someone about it.

    "If Dr. Davis wishes to ban me from posting the truth about you, that's fine with me. It's his blog, but like him, I look for truth amidst hucksters."

    Once again Anon be specific. You're good at tossing out broad labels but really bad when it comes to providing specific evidence.

    At my gym we train hundreds of people a week - New Yorkers - who are thrilled with the results they are getting. I've been in biz for 12 years and if what I teach didn't bring results I'd have been out of business long ago.

    "Like I said, let people Google you and your previous interactions with others and make up their own minds."

    I don't think anyone is going to waste their time. You seem to be the only one with a problem.

    And you didn't answer my question Anon - Give me one, just one physiological reason why my Slow Burn HIT strength training program can't work. C'mon - let us all see how much YOU know.

    And post a pic while you're at it. My guess is that you aren't half as built as I am. There! I've stooped to your level as you anticipated. I didn't want you to be too disappointed.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/18/2010 7:12:32 PM |

    Part 1:

    "People should Google you to make up their own mind. The common denominators in your interactions with others are a lack of understanding of basic science, statistics, and applicability of scientific studies."

    Now you're lying. More ad hominem attacks? Be specific Anon. But you can't can you?

    "You generally act offended right away and refuse to answer anymore questions because of it."

    Now you're lying.

    "Somewhere in there you'll resort to ad hominem attacks and ask for pictures and videos of other people while posting your dark and/or mostly clothes pictures while making excuses (I have bad genetics, bad knees, etc.) for your lack of strength."

    But I don't lack strength. And of course I'm going to be clothed in public pictures. I don't have professional body builder photos. But mine are still a world better than none at all.

    "If Dr. Davis wishes to ban me from posting the truth about you, that's fine with me. It's his blog, but like him, I look for truth amidst hucksters."

    Once again Anon be specific. You're good at tossing out labels but really bad when it comes to providing evidence. At my gym we train hundreds of people a week - New Yorkers - who are thrilled with the results they are getting. I've been in biz for 12 years and if what I teach didn't bring results I'd have been out of business long ago.

    "Like I said, let people Google you and your previous interactions with others and make up their own minds."

    I don't think anyone is going to waste their time.

    And you didn't answer my question. Give me one, just one physiological reason why my Slow Burn HIT strength training program can't work. C'mon - let us all see how much YOU know.

  • Anonymous

    9/18/2010 8:46:04 PM |

    As I suspected, you have no idea what ad hominem means.  Good for you for sticking to the script though.

    If people want specifics and don't want to "waste their time", I'll provide a link to a "debate" you had with some pretty smart folks that illustrates your tactics and lack of knowledge.  At least you make up for that by being loud and post a lot.  (<----see?  That's ad hominem).

    http://forums.jpfitness.com/diet-nutrition-supplementation/39280-fierce-conversations-2-more-important-adequate-protein-carb-reduction-2.html#post748988

  • Fred Hahn

    9/19/2010 1:44:37 AM |

    So Anon, I take it that you cannot think of a physiological reason to support your position that Slow Burn is non productive, right?

    This is the third time I have challenged you on this. Can you or can you not present data that would refute Slow Burn strength training?

  • Kevin

    9/20/2010 2:21:27 PM |

    I tore both rotator cuffs by doing slow burn....10 years ago.  I didn't know what slow burn was, I just read about someone doing it and getting quick results.  I use an ab roller.  If you don't know what it is, it looks like a wheelbarrow wheel with handles attached to the axle. I'd roll forward til arms were parallel to the ground and roll back.  I'd do a ten-second count rolling forward, hold for ten seconds then take ten seconds to roll back.  When that got easy I'd roll out then get on my toes so that I was in a plank.  Somewhere in there I felt tearing in one shoulder, then the other.  

    Bottom line, I shoulda read the book first.   Smile

  • Fred Hahn

    9/20/2010 2:27:14 PM |

    Kevin said:

    "I tore both rotator cuffs by doing slow burn....10 years ago. I didn't know what slow burn was, I just read about someone doing it and getting quick results. I use an ab roller. If you don't know what it is, it looks like a wheelbarrow wheel with handles attached to the axle. I'd roll forward til arms were parallel to the ground and roll back. I'd do a ten-second count rolling forward, hold for ten seconds then take ten seconds to roll back. When that got easy I'd roll out then get on my toes so that I was in a plank. Somewhere in there I felt tearing in one shoulder, then the other. Bottom line, I shoulda read the book first. Smile "

    Hi Kevin -

    If you tore both rotator cuffs using an ab roller, it was the way your arms were situated in the device not the slow movement speed itself. You'd have torn them using  fast rep speed as well doing the same thing. Hope you're ok now.

  • Kevin

    9/20/2010 4:52:29 PM |

    They click when holding my arms in the 'HANDS UP!' position.  The doc says mild DJD but I'm hoping the Slow Burn (using the book) will help.  

    kevin

  • Fred Hahn

    9/20/2010 5:04:58 PM |

    "They click when holding my arms in the 'HANDS UP!' position. The doc says mild DJD but I'm hoping the Slow Burn (using the book) will help."

    Use lightish weights to start. REALLY start each rep taking 2-3 seconds for the first inch of movement. If you need help let me know!

  • Anonymous

    9/21/2010 1:01:13 AM |

    Fred,

    I read your book, but I'm somewhat confused (a frequent occurance for me).

    There are two sets of workouts:  "in your home", basically using somehoushold items and body weight; and in the gym using specific gym equipment.

    I want to try your system using my free weights and a basic universal machine.

    Do I just change the timing and tempo of my current free-weight and machine exercises?

    I'm sorry if I missed something in the book, but I just can't find the anser to my question.

    I'm posting as anonymous because my password doesn't seem to be working, and I can't figure out how to reset it.

    Thank you.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/21/2010 11:44:50 AM |

    "I read your book, but I'm somewhat confused (a frequent occurance for me).There are two sets of workouts: "in your home", basically using some houshold items and body weight; and in the gym using specific gym equipment."

    Correct. And thanks for reading the book!

    "I want to try your system using my free weights and a basic universal machine. Do I just change the timing and tempo of my current free-weight and machine exercises?"

    Yes -basically go slower on the lifts and train to complete fatigue as best as possible to tap into the fast twitch fibers.

    "I'm sorry if I missed something in the book, but I just can't find the anser to my question. I'm posting as anonymous because my password doesn't seem to be working, and I can't figure out how to reset it. Thank you."

    You're very welcome!

  • Anonymous

    9/21/2010 12:50:03 PM |

    Go slow to tap fast twitch fibers.  LOL

    Oh Fred.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/21/2010 2:02:38 PM |

    "Go slow to tap fast twitch fibers. LOL"

    Why are you laughing?

    Before I go into a long post, please explain to us all your understanding of the orderly recruitment theory. Be brief please.

  • Anne

    9/23/2010 8:10:25 AM |

    I've just come back from nearly three weeks holiday in France and was pleasantly surprised to see that Dr Davis is taking up Fred Hahn's Slow Burn. I've been following Fred Hahn's protocol for more than three years now. I'm in my mid 50's and have osteoporosis, atypical type 2 diabetes (ie I'm very thin and not insulin resistant) and a heart defect. I started doing Slow Burn specifically to help increase my bone density on the advice of Dr Mike Eades. It works not only for that - the technique was originally devised by a physiotherapist called Ken Hutchins for people with osteoporosis (Super Slow) - but also for my general fitness. I started lifting weights at home with this method and then moved on to the gym, now I do once a week at home with free weights and once a week at the gym with machines. I have gained such strength and muscle tone, I lift as much as some of the body building men at the gym I go to when it comes to the leg press ! Arm muscles no where near as strong as a man's but then I am a skinny woman, but my legs are very strong....and that helps increase bone density on hips. Fred is always helpful when I've had problems....nice to see you here Fred Smile

  • Fred Hahn

    9/23/2010 11:58:16 AM |

    "..nice to see you here Fred Smile"

    Thanks Anne!

  • Anonymous

    9/24/2010 3:23:10 PM |

    Isn't heavy weight a good way to tap into fast twitch? Why move down to a weight you can handle to those long reps? (different anon)

  • Fred Hahn

    9/24/2010 3:36:46 PM |

    "Isn't heavy weight a good way to tap into fast twitch? Why move down to a weight you can handle to those long reps? (different anon)"

    You're not - with slow reps you are using a heavier weight than when using fast reps. That is one HUGE difference between superslow and slow burn.

    Think of it this way. Do as many "regular" push ups as you can. Up, down, up down - pump away. Time how long it takes you to get to complete fatigue.

    Let's say you reached complete fatigue in 60 seconds. An hour later do slow push ups. Your set will last longer.

    So to reach complete fatigue using slow reps you need to add more weight to your body.

    The same is true for machines, free weights, etc. The weights I use on my machines can't be lifted in one second - impossible.

  • Anonymous

    9/26/2010 8:13:13 PM |

    But Fred, earlier you said in a comment "go slower" not "go heavier."
    I know with a heavy weight I can't move it that fast (though with training I have seen how I can move a higher % of my increasing 1rm faster), but I am *trying* to move them as fast as possible.
    It sounds like you advocate for something different - not even trying to move the weight as fast as possible. It's not clear to me.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/27/2010 2:05:30 PM |

    "But Fred, earlier you said in a comment "go slower" not "go heavier."

    ****Where did I say this? If I did I think I was referring to something someone else said RE: Olympic lifting.

    "I know with a heavy weight I can't move it that fast (though with training I have seen how I can move a higher % of my increasing 1rm faster), but I am *trying* to move them as fast as possible."

    ****Right. And depending on the lift, you can learn to use leverage to your advantage. But the goal is not to lift weights quickly. The goal is to fatigue the target muscles to stimulate a growth response.

    "It sounds like you advocate for something different - not even trying to move the weight as fast as possible. It's not clear to me."

    As fast as possible is relative. You should be trying to move it as fast as possible on the last rep. Because many machines and free weight exercises are not able to offer the correct resistance from start to finish, sometimes the start of an exercise has the weight too light and thus you could, if you pushed as hard as possible move the weight quickly. Perhaps I should blog on this?

  • Anonymous

    9/27/2010 7:31:00 PM |

    Fred - it's up above. Your quote was:
    "Yes -basically go slower on the lifts and train to complete fatigue as best as possible to tap into the fast twitch fibers."
    Going slower will lower the limit of the heaviest weight I can do. I am not inclined to use any breaks on my heavy lifts! I am not training to restrain.

    Also -as fast as possible on the last rep - but not others?

    "But the goal is not to lift weights quickly. The goal is to fatigue the target muscles to stimulate a growth response. "

    I guess we have different goal(s). My goal is to get stronger in a movement.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/27/2010 8:21:55 PM |

    "Fred - it's up above. Your quote was: "Yes -basically go slower on the lifts and train to complete fatigue as best as possible to tap into the fast twitch fibers." Going slower will lower the limit of the heaviest weight I can do. I am not inclined to use any breaks on my heavy lifts! I am not training to restrain."

    Only of you are currently using a lot of leverage, bouncing and, as I mentioned using machines or free weights that under load you at the start.

    "Also -as fast as possible on the last rep - but not others?"

    As I said, which I don't think you are understanding, if an exercise under loads to in a given range then you want to limit the use of momentum and make sure that you are feeling meaningful resistance throughout the entire range.  

    "But the goal is not to lift weights quickly. The goal is to fatigue the target muscles to stimulate a growth response." I guess we have different goal(s). My goal is to get stronger in a movement."

    You mean like what - bench more weight? Then we have the same goal. All productive resistance training programs progress the resistance. My goal is to gain or maintain lean mass. If I could tap myself on the shoulder with my magic muscle wand and increase my lean mass 20 pounds, I'd instantly bench more, squat more, curl more, etc. If I lost 20 pounds of lean mass, I'd be weaker.

    There are 12 year olds who can snatch more weight than I can but I assure you I am "stronger" than they are. They could not budge the weights I use in my gym.

    If one is into the "Yo man, what can you bench?" mind set, fine. All in good fun. But when people use this mind set to discredit other peoples strength because they use machines instead of free weights, this is quite absurd.

  • Anonymous

    9/27/2010 9:23:01 PM |

    I understand that leverage changes along a movement make some positions more / less advantages but to call free weight lifting "lot of leverage or bouncing" a bit disingenuous.
    It might also be called using one's body. And since my body is what I'll always be using to lift/exercise/etc it seems like a good model to base my training on.

    "There are 12 year olds who can snatch more weight than I can but I assure you I am "stronger" than they are. They could not budge the weights I use in my gym. "
    This line - are you really bragging about being stronger than 12yr olds? And by weights do you mean machines or weights?

    When I say I like getting stronger in the movements, it means I like doing the moves and getting stronger in them. 2 things I can do at once, by practicing the move! Call it opinion.
    It looks from above like you have denied requests to prove your competency at some common gym lifts (moves) so why shouldn't one be skeptical that you or your system is especially good at producing competency in them? Deadlifting is fun, machines aren’t to me.   So to sell (someone like) me on the effectiveness of your method, you’ll need to prove its effectiveness and that it’s so effective it’s worth doing despite the unpleasant nature of a machine.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 12:24:13 AM |

    "I understand that leverage changes along a movement make some positions more / less advantages but to call free weight lifting "lot of leverage or bouncing" a bit disingenuous."

    ****That's not what I said.

    "It might also be called using one's body. And since my body is what I'll always be using to lift/exercise/etc it seems like a good model to base my training on."

    ****Does it? Or are you being argumentative?  

    "There are 12 year olds who can snatch more weight than I can but I assure you I am "stronger" than they are. They could not budge the weights I use in my gym. "
    This line - are you really bragging about being stronger than 12yr olds?"

    ****Try not to be so transparent.

    "And by weights do you mean machines or weights?"

    ****If you do not know the answer to this, I can't help you.

    "When I say I like getting stronger in the movements, it means I like doing the moves and getting stronger in them. 2 things I can do at once, by practicing the move! Call it opinion. It looks from above like you have denied requests to prove your competency at some common gym lifts (moves) so why shouldn't one be skeptical that you or your system is especially good at producing competency in them?"

    ****You've missed the point entirely.

    "Deadlifting is fun, machines aren’t to me. So to sell (someone like) me on the effectiveness of your method, you’ll need to prove its effectiveness and that it’s so effective it’s worth doing despite the unpleasant nature of a machine."

    ****You're not getting it and I can see that you are choosing not to. Enjoy your lifts!

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 12:24:18 AM |

    "I understand that leverage changes along a movement make some positions more / less advantages but to call free weight lifting "lot of leverage or bouncing" a bit disingenuous."

    ****That's not what I said.

    "It might also be called using one's body. And since my body is what I'll always be using to lift/exercise/etc it seems like a good model to base my training on."

    ****Does it? Or are you being argumentative?  

    "There are 12 year olds who can snatch more weight than I can but I assure you I am "stronger" than they are. They could not budge the weights I use in my gym. "
    This line - are you really bragging about being stronger than 12yr olds?"

    ****Try not to be so transparent.

    "And by weights do you mean machines or weights?"

    ****If you do not know the answer to this, I can't help you.

    "When I say I like getting stronger in the movements, it means I like doing the moves and getting stronger in them. 2 things I can do at once, by practicing the move! Call it opinion. It looks from above like you have denied requests to prove your competency at some common gym lifts (moves) so why shouldn't one be skeptical that you or your system is especially good at producing competency in them?"

    ****You've missed the point entirely.

    "Deadlifting is fun, machines aren’t to me. So to sell (someone like) me on the effectiveness of your method, you’ll need to prove its effectiveness and that it’s so effective it’s worth doing despite the unpleasant nature of a machine."

    ****You're not getting it and I can see that you are choosing not to. Enjoy your lifts!

  • Tom

    9/28/2010 1:51:32 AM |

    Hello Fred,

    Fred, you wrote: <>

    I really appreciate your willingness to continue to respond to questions and comments here. But I have to admit that I've become very confused (it's a frequent occurance for me).

    I primarily use free weights.  I'm lost at this point as to how specifically to use free weights to do the "Slow Burn".

    Would you be so kind to perhaps specifically describe how I would do bench presses and/or squats (I do "a** to the grass" squats) so that I understand?  

    A number of folks here are using a lot of jargon that I just can't understand.  

    If there is another site that explains this very simply, I'll gladly go there to.

    Thank you for bearing with me.  I really want to try your program, but at this point I'm very confused.

    Sincerely,

    Tom

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 11:32:04 AM |

    "I really appreciate your willingness to continue to respond to questions and comments here. But I have to admit that I've become very confused (it's a frequent occurance for me). I primarily use free weights. I'm lost at this point as to how specifically to use free weights to do the "Slow Burn".
    Would you be so kind to perhaps specifically describe how I would do bench presses and/or squats (I do "a** to the grass" squats) so that I understand? A number of folks here are using a lot of jargon that I just can't understand. If there is another site that explains this very simply, I'll gladly go there to.
    Thank you for bearing with me. I really want to try your program, but at this point I'm very confused."

    Hi Tom - It's actually quite simple. Use the same weights you squat with now and when you squat - and make sure you are using safety stops of some sort when squatting or benching - take 1-2 seconds to move the bar the first inch down, lower to wherever you like to go, then slowly rise up taking 5 seconds or longer to rise up to where you are not quite locked out - maybe 3 inches prior to lockout. Then reverse and continue until you cannot budge the weights off the stops even though you are attempting to rise up as fast as possible IN GOOD FORM. That's it!

  • Tom

    9/28/2010 12:35:25 PM |

    Hi Fred,
    And thank you for explaining the Slow Burb squat in simple terms.  I get it!  (I think).

    If I understand, and apply your explanation to the Bench press, I would lift the bar of the pins and then take 1 to 2 seconds to lower the first inch, continue down, reverse, and then take 5 seconds back up, without locking out?

    Jeez....I can feel the burn just thinking about it.

    But I'm now confused about the amount of weight.  It seems that with the constant controlled load on my muscles, I would have to drop to a lower weight.  I ask this because it seems that a regular lift uses momentum to some degree to help move the weight.

    Fred, I really appreciate your help with all my questions.

    By the way, I don't have stops for the squats, but I do have some really deep divots in my floor  Smile.

    Best regards,

    Tom

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 1:14:30 PM |

    Hi Fred, And thank you for explaining the Slow Burb squat in simple terms. I get it! (I think).

    ****Don't over think it. Just do it.

    If I understand, and apply your explanation to the Bench press, I would lift the bar of the pins and then take 1 to 2 seconds to lower the first inch, continue down, reverse, and then take 5 seconds back up, without locking out?

    ****Right 5 seconds or so. No bounce. No prestretch which is where you use the elastic properties of your tendons to help you initiate an explosive start off the chest. When the bar touches the safety stops, pause without unloading the muscles and then press powerfully upwards. If the weight is right you should not be able to press it fast.

    Jeez....I can feel the burn just thinking about it.

    ****Well then! Smile

    But I'm now confused about the amount of weight. It seems that with the constant controlled load on my muscles, I would have to drop to a lower weight. I ask this because it seems that a regular lift uses momentum to some degree to help move the weight.

    ***Unless your form is coyote ugly, bouncing off the chest, wriggling around to gain leverage advantages, etc you won't need to lower the weight. You might even need to raise it.

    Fred, I really appreciate your help with all my questions.

    ****No problem. Glad to be of help.

    By the way, I don't have stops for the squats, but I do have some really deep divots in my floor Smile.

    *****Hah - well I do not suggest squatting or benching without them. You're asking for trouble.

  • Anonymous

    9/28/2010 2:24:26 PM |

    Tom
    Why are you asking squat and bench advice from a guy who doesn't do those lifts?

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 2:55:36 PM |

    "Why are you asking squat and bench advice from a guy who doesn't do those lifts?"

    Why do you continue to come here to this blog and offer nothing but negativity.

    Tom - To address Anon's poorly presented yet potentially valid statement, I don't squat or bench at present. However, I have in the years past for many years.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 2:58:48 PM |

    Oh and since you're still lurking about Anon, I take it you were unable to answer any of the questions I posed to you.

    1. Give us all one good, physiological reason why slow burn wouldn't work to build strength and muscle

    and

    2. Define and describe the Orderly Recruitment theory.

    Don't cheat and use Google - use your noodle.

  • Tom

    9/28/2010 3:39:03 PM |

    Thanks once more Fred.

    You're correct....I tend to overthink things.  I really appreciate your guidance on this.

    On another note....if I may, I would urge you to utterly ignore the wingnut above.  He's posted comments on other blog he and they're all negative.  He's a self-described expert, but i picture him sitting alone in front of his computer fondling a handfull of ball bearings like Queeg in The Caine Mutiny.

    He loves baiting people.  There is no reason you need to "defend" against his comments.

    I fo rone really appreciate the time you take to give advice.

    Thank you fred.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 3:49:17 PM |

    You're correct....I tend to overthink things. I really appreciate your guidance on this.

    ****You bet.

    On another note....if I may, I would urge you to utterly ignore the wingnut above. He's posted comments on other blog he and they're all negative. He's a self-described expert, but i picture him sitting alone in front of his computer fondling a handfull of ball bearings like Queeg in The Caine Mutiny.

    **** ;)

    He loves baiting people. There is no reason you need to "defend" against his comments.

    *****Agreed but it's fun sometimes to respond.  

    I for one really appreciate the time you take to give advice.

    ***Well thanks. I enjoy the dialog.

  • Anonymous

    9/28/2010 7:21:03 PM |

    Fred and "Tom"
    Fred, glad you recognized the validity of my question - why ask someone who doesn't bench or squat about doing the bench and squat. But you didn't address it, nor did "Tom." No big deal. Just saying.
    Not sure which other blog this anon is said to have commented on. BTW there's more than one person who has posted anon comments here, "Tom," and you're one of them.

  • Fred Hahn

    9/28/2010 7:32:19 PM |

    Fred, glad you recognized the validity of my question - why ask someone who doesn't bench or squat about doing the bench and squat. But you didn't address it, nor did "Tom." No big deal. Just saying.

    *****There was nothing to address. You were wrong. I have squatted and benched. I did for years.  

    Not sure which other blog this anon is said to have commented on. BTW there's more than one person who has posted anon comments here, "Tom," and you're one of them.


    ****We know. You must admit however that your question was aggressive.

  • Tom

    9/29/2010 1:48:07 AM |

    Anonymous said: "BTW there's more than one person who has posted anon comments here, "Tom," and you're one of them."

    When I posted as Anonymous, I clearly identified myself as Tom.  As for your question about why I would take advice fron Fred....It's none of your damn business.

    You're the same troublemaker who has posted on other blogs here.  You still don't have the guts to identify yourself.

    You're a gutless little twirp who gets his jollies by fomenting problems.  Grow up.  Fred has much more tolerance of you than I do.

  • Weight Loss in Washington DC

    10/14/2010 4:50:25 AM |

    This sounds great i love reading this article it is nice.

  • Stoing

    12/28/2010 4:23:31 PM |

    I thought I would put my two cents in here.

    The purpose of exercise is to make you stronger and causes many other positive adaptations to take place within the body that I won't pretend to understand. Your goal is to make your body perform the hard work (high intensity muscular contractions).  If you are using a heavy weight that you can can handle in good form the "explosive", "fast", movement isn't going to happen. It may happen to some degree early in the set.  Think of controlling the resistance/weight.  I think sometimes people mix up stimulation with the way people lift random objects in everyday life.  We don't necessarily think about keeping tension on the muscles when we are changing a flat tire or lifting our kids.  Although we should still try to be mindful of the way we do these things.  Then of course we have the whole issue of moveing fast in sports.  You can move fast in sports because you aren't moving outside resistance.  You of course have to practice your sport to improve that speed/skill.  You will increase your strength for your sport or lifting your kids or changing a flat tire when you challenge your muscles with a heavy resistance and you make your muscles do the work.  When you are doing the concentric phase of a lift your muscles are attempting to move fast,  if the resistance is heavy enough and you are using good form you movement will actually be slow especially as you begin to fatigue.  As for the negative phase you want to contol the contraction.  You don't have to lower extremely slow.

  • Stoing

    12/29/2010 2:44:01 AM |

    Good stuff here by Fred.  Safe equipment, heavy load, control the movement.  Doing Slowburn, Superslow, Body By Science, or the like is the right way to go.  You don't have to do deadlifts, you don't have to squat, you don't have to do olympic lifts, you don't have to use free weights.

  • Fred Hahn

    12/29/2010 4:20:50 PM |

    That sums it up Stoing!

  • stoing

    1/1/2011 11:33:23 PM |

    Hi Fred,

    I wanted to see if I could get your opinion on something.  Isolation exercises.  It seems to me that with isolation exercises, particularly on a rotary machine, that you are working a muscle as closely as possible with out leverage taking away resistance on the muscle.  I know not all single joint machines properly vary the resistance over the range of the movement.  I know that with compound movements you of course involve more muscle mass simultaneously.  On the other hand if you look at say the bottom of a dumbbell fly, you are getting tension in the pectoral region, the biceps, the forearms.  Sorry if this post seems kinda jumbled, I'm trying to get to the point as quickly as possible without unnecessary rambling.  I guess the short of it is that it seems to me that certain so called isolation free weight exercises have positions where there is a great deal of "resistance" without requiring much weight.  And it seems that this is similar to what happens during a rotary single joint exercise.  I'm sure you're familiar with Bill DeSimone and John Little.  I know they have some different recommendations about where to load muscles and how leverage affects exercises.  Just thought I'd get your opinions on my rambling here.

  • Anonymous

    1/7/2011 6:12:42 PM |

    My last post was kind of a jumbled mess.  My thinking is shouldn't a big part of one's intention in the gym be to load muscles where they are exposed to the most "resistance"?  I don't know what particular exercises you recommend.

  • Anonymous

    1/8/2011 2:13:47 PM |

    If one's goal is to simply stay "fit" or wanting to keep the body in "good shape" is it necessary to push oneself to the great discomfort level?  This may contradict some of my earlier posts.  If ones goal is to continue to gain more and more muscle mass I understand why you must at some point increase the amount of resistance in a given exercise.  I think that moving safely and low impact as possible should be on our minds whenever we move or lift anything.  What has been coming to me off and on for some time is that is it really necessary to push oneself so "hard" during exercise?

  • Fred Hahn

    1/8/2011 2:47:32 PM |

    'If one's goal is to simply stay "fit" or wanting to keep the body in "good shape" is it necessary to push oneself to the great discomfort level?"

    I don't know what you're level of "great discomfort is." Truth be told I've had clients feel great discomfort on the 3 repetition of an exercise but they were able to complete 8 reps. You get the best bang for your buck if you take a set to complete fatigue.

    "This may contradict some of my earlier posts. If ones goal is to continue to gain more and more muscle mass I understand why you must at some point increase the amount of resistance in a given exercise. I think that moving safely and low impact as possible should be on our minds whenever we move or lift anything. What has been coming to me off and on for some time is that is it really necessary to push oneself so "hard" during exercise?"

    Hard is relative of course. What is hard can sometimes be enough. Sometimes not. But if you are doing it right, your R session should last 15 - 30 minutes. Of that time if you are doing 8 exercises and reaching complete fatigue in say 60 seconds on each machine, you are only spending 8 total minutes under the iron if you will. Of those 8 minutes, only half the time will be truly uncomfortable.

    Isn't 4 minutes or so of hard effort worth the rewards?

  • Anonymous

    1/8/2011 7:46:08 PM |

    Hi Fred, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.  I'm also the one posting as, Stoing.  When I tried to post as Stoing on these last two it didn't work so I posted as Anonomys.  I have not read your book yet.  Reading through this blog and some other stuff you have written online really makes a lot of sense to me.  You along with Little, Baye, McGuff, DeSimone, Darden, and some others have really made me think.  I admit I don't understand a lot of the different processes that take place in the body from strength training or from more endurance length exercise.  The point of failure or and fatigue have been something I have wondered a a lot about.  To me the idea of contolled contractions or static contractions seem lik they would be much safer for the structural integrity of the body.  I've had conflicting thoughts regarding "functional " lifting.  If you look at the way we lift something in everyday life it is quite different than the way we load our bodies when "strength training".  I guess the thinking here is that is it a good thing to isolate certain muscle groups instead using almost the whole body to lift something like when lifting a heavy box or moving a heavy piece of furniture.  You then of course have the some the neck musculature that you would have to address directly if you wanted to strenghen those muscles.  You and the other guys I mentioned seem to be very knowledgable and have a lot of integrity.  Sorry if I rambled too much here.

  • Anonymous

    1/9/2011 9:58:03 PM |

    Hi Fred,

    I would definately agree with you that 4 minutes or so of hard effort is worth it.  Again I apologize if my postings seem too incoherent or jumbled. I wrote some of what I wrote in a bit of a hurry and on my cell phone.

    I'm probably getting of track with my reference to more "functional" type lifts.  When I say functional I don't mean "explosive" or trying to match a specific "skilled" movement.  I'm thinking along the lines of what is more biomechanically sound for the body. John Little, Pete Sisco, Stuart McRobert, Bill DeSimone, and some others have made me think alot about this part of strength training.  I was wondering what your do's and don'ts with range of motion and maybe certain exercises are.    

    Stoing

  • huntdonnie70

    1/24/2011 4:06:57 PM |

    Hi Fred,

    My name is Donnie Hunt.  I'm the guy who has been posting here recently as Stoing and anonymous.  I thought I should just use my real name.  I was having some concerns about posting with my real name online.  Anyways I have read down through the comments on this blog and really like what you have to say about strength training.  I have not engaged in a workout myself for awhile but I have always had an interest in doing and learning about this topic.  You along with the other guys I have already mentioned on here have really influenced my thinking on strength training.  Anyways I thought I'd stop with the mysterious names, use my real name and say hello.

    If ones primary goal is the greatest strength/hypertrophy gains would you recommend and even lower TUL?

  • Fred Hahn

    1/24/2011 8:26:10 PM |

    Hi Donnie - glad to meet you!

    You asked:

    "If ones primary goal is the greatest strength/hypertrophy gains would you recommend and even lower TUL?"

    Well not necessarily. First and foremost is diet. You have to get that right. Adequate protein intake is essential.

    I'd use weight loads that rendered muscle failure in 50-70 seconds. Experiment of course. Train 2X a week. Experiment with this too. Sometimes try 3X a week, other times once a week or 3 training sessions in to weeks.

  • Anonymous

    1/28/2011 5:25:35 AM |

    Thank you very much for the advice, Fred.

  • Anonymous

    2/1/2011 10:48:29 PM |

    What a confusing thread.
    Fred, can you help me clear some things up - this slow method sounds interesting and different. So far in my test I seemed to like it but people tell me no one ever got really strong  this way. Where could I find examples of some individuals who have demonstrated great strength and muscle development using this method? Thanks!

  • Fred Hahn

    2/1/2011 11:57:39 PM |

    "What a confusing thread.
    Fred, can you help me clear some things up - this slow method sounds interesting and different. So far in my test I seemed to like it but people tell me no one ever got really strong this way. Where could I find examples of some individuals who have demonstrated great strength and muscle development using this method? Thanks!"

    Well the first thing I tell people who are given this line of nonsense is that this sort of reasoning is worse than worthless since there are scores of athletes throughout history who were powerful athletes who never even lifted a weight.

    It's akin to when people were being negative towards the automobile because everyone else was riding horses.

    Read the book Static Contraction Training by Pete Sisco:

    http://www.precisiontraining.com/

    In this type of training you don't just move slowly, you don't move at all. I don't agree with all of what Pete says, but the idea is the same.

    It's like saying to be smart, eat a low carb, high fat diet to fuel brain cells adequately. We know that this is the best way to eat for brain health - low sugar, no grain. But then someone says to you "What geniuses eat like that?" One has nothing to do with the other.

    Great strength and muscular development has a HUGE genetic component to it. Never forget that.

  • Anonymous

    2/2/2011 1:17:37 AM |

    Fred, I am still confused. You say:
    "Well the first thing I tell people who are given this line of nonsense is that this sort of reasoning is worse than worthless since there are scores of athletes throughout history who were powerful athletes who never even lifted a weight."
    Sure, I get this, old football players, to name one example, didn't lift weights but were often impressive and strong.
    But I was hoping that, if your methods are pretty good, there should be some impressive people who've used them I could find. You know, show my friends some dudes who did and kicked some butt!
    Know anyone?

  • Fred Hahn

    2/2/2011 1:37:52 AM |

    "But I was hoping that, if your methods are pretty good, there should be some impressive people who've used them I could find. You know, show my friends some dudes who did and kicked some butt! Know anyone?"

    If I gave you a list this would prove nothing. One could say they were strong to begin with.

    There is a strong man named Drew Israel who trained using a slow rep training protocol after years of injuries. I don't know where he is now unfortunately.

    Then there's Joel Waldman who owns Belmar Fitness. He had, at one time, one of the largest necks in the world.

    Doug Holland and his son won many power lifting competitions using slow reps for their basic training and then practicing power lifting once a month.  

    http://bit.ly/fBO6V3

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwmuk4N1Dv4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5-L8WKYpJY

    And there are many more people out there doing much of the same.

    But in the end, who cares that there aren't a lot of pros doing it. Big deal.

    You might find this interesting. You might need a magnifying glass:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/86834534@N00/502572150/

  • Anonymous

    2/2/2011 2:01:53 PM |

    Fred, I understand there's limitations to this kind of "evidence." I am not trying to make the argument that "playing basketball makes you tall" for example.
    But if this system was really good at producing strength and size gains you'd think it'd start to creep into athletics since those guys are competitive and will try anything, and keep doing it if it works. I mean, a 53yr old guy doing a moderate deadlift is the first impressive lift you can find? Maybe someone you trained for a few years?
    Look, maybe the real selling point of your slow burn is safety and convenience, which are valuable, but it's not showing much performance.  
    If not, it's cool, it just doesn't sound like the kind of thing worth doing for people who want move heavy stuff not on machines.

  • Fred Hahn

    2/2/2011 2:56:07 PM |

    "Fred, I understand there's limitations to this kind of "evidence." I am not trying to make the argument that "playing basketball makes you tall" for example. But if this system was really good at producing strength and size gains you'd think it'd start to creep into athletics since those guys are competitive and will try anything, and keep doing it if it works."

    I must beg to differ. EX: There are a ton of studies that indicate that stretching decreases stability in the joints and reduces power output in athletics that require such. Whey then do sports teams continue their elaborate stretching programs?

    "I mean, a 53yr old guy doing a moderate deadlift is the first impressive lift you can find? Maybe someone you trained for a few years?"

    Did you miss the part where I said the he and his son won many power lifting championships? He has squatted over 3 times his body weight. Doug is a beast. My clients are almost all regular people not strength athletes.

    "Look, maybe the real selling point of your slow burn is safety and convenience, which are valuable, but it's not showing much performance."

    Define "performance." You are confusing demonstrations of strength and building muscle.

    "If not, it's cool, it just doesn't sound like the kind of thing worth doing for people who want move heavy stuff not on machines."

    If your goal is to move heavy stuff around go do that but be careful. If your goal is to hit tennis balls, go do that.

    The goal of resistance training is to build muscle and strength. If your goal is to do that safely, efficiently and effectively, try Slow Burn. If you don't care about your own safety and just want to pick up heavy objects for the sake of it, fine.

    When you get injured, and you will get injured, don't come crying to me. ;)

  • Anonymous

    2/2/2011 8:31:37 PM |

    Fred:

    So I asked you to show me some evidence of this strength and muscle slow burn has built... and the first response is a logical argument, not evidence.
    The second response was one moderately strong old guy, a guy reduced to using slow burn from injuries, and a guy with a big neck.
    The third response is an argument about another subject, a contesting of a definition, and what I feel to be sarcasm.
    I think the most telling part of your response was this:
    My clients are almost all regular people not strength athletes.
    Cool. Just admit your training is applicable for strength athletes.

  • Fred Hahn

    2/2/2011 8:51:17 PM |

    "So I asked you to show me some evidence of this strength and muscle slow burn has built... and the first response is a logical argument, not evidence."

    All weight lifting methods that are taken to momentary muscle fatigue within the anaerobic window and are progressive in nature increase strength and muscle mass provided recovery and diet are applied properly. So what is your point exactly?

    "The second response was one moderately strong old guy, a guy reduced to using slow burn from injuries, and a guy with a big neck."

    Doug Holland and his son were/are champion power lifters. He did not adopt slow rep training because of his injuries though he found them useful after he became injured by performing weight lifting in a manner you seem to prefer.

    "The third response is an argument about another subject, a contesting of a definition, and what I feel to be sarcasm. I think the most telling part of your response was this: My clients are almost all regular people not strength athletes. Cool. Just admit your training is applicable for strength athletes."

    OK I admit it. It is applicable for strength athletes. ;0

    You forgot to put in a 'not' there didn't you?

    Well, you seem to be uneducable on this matter. Too bad really. Did you check out the references I gave? Did you read the article from strength and health or did you skip it?

  • Anonymous

    2/3/2011 9:06:29 PM |

    Correct Fred, I forgot the "not." Tiny articles aren't the things I was looking for here. It was fun learning about your weird training cult.

  • Fred Hahn

    2/3/2011 9:14:48 PM |

    "Correct Fred, I forgot the "not." Tiny articles aren't the things I was looking for here. It was fun learning about your weird training cult."

    My "weird training cult?" Hmm. Heck, I didn't know lifting heavy weights, a couple to a few times a week, in a progressive manner, using a controlled repetition tempo to the point where the muscles are fully fatigued was a cult.

    Thanks for the clarification! And here I thought all along I was doing something that millions of other people have been doing for decades!

    What a silly-billy I am. ;0

  • Anonymous

    2/4/2011 3:10:35 PM |

    "And here I thought all along I was doing something that millions of other people have been doing for decades! "
    You truly are a master internet debater as this thread shows. "Slowburn the fitness revolution" or whatever you sell it as is what millions have been doing for decades when I point out how marginal your practices are. You even call it lifting weights when it suits your points.
    Man there's plenty of funny evidence about your around the net, though:
    http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=23 and your forum is funny seriousstrength.yuku.com
    Good stuff man. I will check in on you for laughs now and again.

  • Fred Hahn

    2/4/2011 5:17:03 PM |

    "You truly are a master internet debater as this thread shows. "Slowburn the fitness revolution" or whatever you sell it as is what millions have been doing for decades when I point out how marginal your practices are."


    Marginal? What does that mean?

    And the title and tag line of my book was created by Random House. I had absolutely no choice in it. And since they insisted on this title and tag, we had to write the book in a way to match the title. I didn't even choose the words Slow Burn.

    "You even call it lifting weights when it suits your points."

    Say what? What did you think it was? You didn't know that strength training and resistance training usually means weight lifting?

    "Man there's plenty of funny evidence about your around the net, though:
    http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=23"

    Yes Anthony Colpo's a gem.

    "and your forum is funny seriousstrength.yuku.com
    Good stuff man. I will check in on you for laughs now and again."

    VG. Laughter is a good thing. Soothes the soul. We should all laugh more.

  • Anonymous

    3/21/2011 11:37:52 PM |

    Some of these comments on here on here get me. lol.  But I guess they're the same comments you get on most strength training sites.

    Strength is strength.  If you're moving explosively it's a result of strength from your muscles contracting.  If you are moving slowly and controlled it's a result of your muscles contracting.

    The heavier the resistance you're contracting against the slower you're body will HAVE to move.  If you're goal is hypertrophy you're going to want to work in this realm.  Fred talks about the time under loads on here.


    CONTROLLING the resistance in strength training is safer because it lowers the impact forces coming back on the body.


    Whether you doing olympic lifts, playing contact sports, or doing Superslow resistance training its all a result of strength/muscle contraction.

    If your goal is to get stronger you don't have to engage in unsafe lifts and you don't have to use free weights.  And all this talk about stabilizers. lol. Do you really think your body doesn't have to stabilize its self when using a machine?? Your stabilizers are worked more thoroughly during other exercises anyway.

  • Anonymous

    3/22/2011 3:19:13 AM |

    Some of these negative comments on here are quite funny.  Is it really that hard to see the benefits of this type of training.  Or do some of these posters just like to argue and make fun.

    We are talking about a form of exercise that is going to improve you strength wise, aerobic wise, and do it very safely, very low impact.

  • Anonymous

    3/22/2011 3:40:26 AM |

    Another thing I find amusing is all this talk about "real strength".  Whether you're engaged in explosive sports or a very slow exercise protocol, you are "demonstrating" strength/contracting your muscles.  Your muscles are working at different levels of strength, but they are still doing the same thing they always do, "contract".

    With a protocol like "Slow Burn" you are moving slow but are capable of producing a great deal of force, the greater the load.  You are also doing it much safer than trying to throw a barbell over your head.

    Do you really not see how a machine can allow you to engage the targeted muscles very intensely and safely?  Do you really think the body doesn't have to stabilize itself during machine exercises?  Do you not work the so called stabilizers more directly with other exercises??

  • fred hahn

    3/22/2011 11:18:59 AM |

    The thing is Anon when people see videos of people using a slow rep protocol in good strict form, it looks as if the lifter is doing nothing. Watch here:

    http://on.fb.me/dMKcBT

    My eldest daughter Georgia is working extremely hard with a very heavy weight (for her). But it looks like easy work. Her heart was pounding through her chest.

    So many people poo-poo slow rep training - till they try it of course.

  • Anonymous

    3/23/2011 12:24:37 AM |

    Hey Fred,

    I just watched some of the video you linked here. Something is up with my computer because it kept stopping and loading.  I was having trouble trying to watch a "Renaissance Exercise" video last night.

    That is awesome you have your family involved in training Smile The first daughter had excellent form and control!  I didn't get to see much past 3 minutes of the video so far.  Good stuff my friend.

  • Anonymous

    3/23/2011 12:35:20 AM |

    Ok. Now i was able to see the whole video.  These young ladies both have really good form and control Fred!  That is awesome that you have them involved in what you do!  Thanks for sharing Smile

  • Fred Hahn

    3/23/2011 11:07:15 AM |

    Ok. Now i was able to see the whole video. These young ladies both have really good form and control Fred! That is awesome that you have them involved in what you do! Thanks for sharing Smile'

    You bet. Kids love it!

  • Anonymous

    4/1/2011 5:37:14 PM |

    "What you have discovered is fat gain and loss is all about how you eat and not exercise.

    Slow Burn is all about proper form. I have a video that takes you through a home based workout using body weight and free weights.(Fred)"

    How can one use slow burn principles of heavy resistance with bodyweight?

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