LDL pattern B

Here's a Q&A I stumbled on in the Forum of MedHelp, where people obtain answers from presumed health "experts."

Question:

My VAP test results in July 07 identified an LDL Pattern B.
Overall results:
Total 150
HDL 75
LDL 61
Trig 60
HDL-2 17
LP(a) 6.0
LDL Pattern B

Medications:
Lipitor 10mg
Zetia 10mg
Altace 10mg
Atenolol 50mg
Plavix 75mg
Aspirin 81mg

I had several heart attacks which resulted in CABG performed May 2000. I am a 53 year old white male , 6'1", 190 pounds, exercise every day, watch my diet and feel great. Everything looks OK except my LDL Pattern B. Is there any therapy to improve the Patten B?


Answer from CCF, MD:
Your results indicate an LDL pattern B, which generally indicates small atherogenic LDL particles which may cause increased risk for CAD. However, there are several problems with LDL patterning: 1) its unreliability (of LDL pattern testing ), 2) unclear clinical evidence regarding regarding the usefulness of LDL patterns and particle size. The majority of evidence regarding the progression of atherosclerosis is with LDL lowering and to an smaller extent HDL raising.

All available clinical evidence shows that any particles in the VLDL, IDL, or LDL range are atherogenic, and there is no evidence that whether belonging to pattern A or B one is more atherogenic than others.

Subclass studies have proliferated over the last few years, but many of these studies were funded or subsidized either by suppliers of the assays as a method to expand their use and move them into mainstream practice, or by pharmaceutical companies in an attempt to claim some advantage over other therapeutic agents.
Thus, current data on LDL subclasses are at best incomplete and at worst misleading, suffering from publication bias, and now given the recent results of the Ensign et al. study, unreliable.

Your LDL, and HDL are at goal. The Lpa level is still not clearly linked as a modifiable risk factor for CAD, although elevated levels are now know to be linked to stroke.

Continue with your present treatments: aspirin, plavix, ateonol and altace are all essential medications.



Wow. The extent of ignorance that pervades the ranks of my colleagues is frightening.

Contrary to the response, LDL particle size assays are quite reliable and accurate. I've performed many thousands of lipoprotein assays and they yield reproducible and clinically believable results. For example, eliminate wheat, oats, cornstarch, and sugars and small LDL drops from 2400 nmol/L to 893 nmol/L (NMR)--huge drops. If repeated within a short period of time, the second measure will correspond quite closely.

The data are also quite clear: Small LDL particles (i.e., "pattern B") are a potent predictor of cardiovascular events. What we lack are the treatment trials that show that reduction of small LDL results in reduced cardiovascular events. The reason for this is that small LDL research is not well-funded, since there is no prescription drug to treat small LDL, only nutritional means. Niacin (as Niaspan) is as close as it comes for a "drug" to reduce small LDL. But diet is far more effective.

Given the questioner's fairly favorable BMI of 25.1 and his history of aggressive heart disease, it is virtually certain that he has what I call "genetic small LDL," i.e., small LDL that occur on a genetically-determined basis (likely due to variants of the cholesteryl-ester transfer protein, or CETP, or of hepatic lipase and others).

Ignoring this man's small LDL will, without a doubt, consign him to a future of more heart attacks, stents, and bypass. Maybe by that time the data supporting the treatment of small LDL will become available.

Comments (17) -

  • Ned Kock

    7/18/2010 5:14:33 PM |

    Hi Dr. Davis.

    Indeed, strange advice there. It seems that in terms of effects on arterial stiffness, compared with postprandial glucose levels lipids are not even on the radar screen:

    http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.com/2010/05/postprandial-glucose-levels-hba1c-and.html

    That is, as you have been pointing out all along, if one "eats to the meter", lipids tend to fall into place. For most people all it takes is to remove refined carbs and sugars from the diet. For others it means to remove some whole foods as well, such as potatoes and bananas.

  • Anonymous

    7/18/2010 6:54:08 PM |

    Dr. Davis- If the person in your post here has genetic small LDL, what are his options? Isn't he kind of stuck? If he lowers his already fairly low LDL too much more, won't he be oversuppressed? Can niacin lower (or convert, or whatever) the small LDL in "genetic" smLDL type, or should such a person just try to get their smLDL particles as low as possible? (even though they might always stay small?)

  • Anonymous

    7/18/2010 8:08:01 PM |

    Dr. Davis,

    What do you look at more, small LDL particles or average LDL size?  Over the period of a year, my small LDL particles have gone down to < 90 nmol/L from around 120 last year, but my average LDL size has decreased (though still pattern A) to 21.1 nanometers (from about 22.3 last year).  

    Thanks.

  • Anonymous

    7/19/2010 4:20:01 AM |

    Since it doesn't account for muscle or fat (i.e. athletic or sedentary), I wouldn't think BMI is a very good indicator of anything...

    Perhaps if the original poster had said his BODY FAT % is 25.1% then that can be evaluated as "favorable" or not.

  • Jim Purdy

    7/19/2010 4:26:43 AM |

    QUOTE:
    "eliminate wheat, oats, cornstarch, and sugars"

    Doctor Davis, based on your many previous posts,  I assume that this is good advice for everybody, not just the individual who asked the question?

  • Christian Wernstedt

    7/19/2010 7:05:11 PM |

    The person's trigs/HDL ratio is 0.8 which ought to indicate large pattern LDL.

    Is the discrepancy with the VAP test because of this person's genetics, or might some other factor be at play?

    Can we generally rely on the trigs/HDL ratio in people who are generally healthy with no signs of the metabolic syndrome?

  • Anonymous

    7/19/2010 11:21:35 PM |

    Christian Wernstedt, I thought that was odd too.  But then again, he is on a boatload of drugs that are designed to manipulate lipid numbers.  You can see that the drugs did indeed give him very low LDL, but seem to have done so by shrinking the particle size, thus the VAP pattern B.  

    So in the case of "great" lipid values here, it would seem they are not so great when achieved artificially by means of drugs.  He may have been better off with "high" cholesterol if it used to be large, fluffy LDL, especially if he had the high HDL and low triglycerides back then too.

  • Onschedule

    7/20/2010 12:35:40 AM |

    Christian Wernstedt,

    The comment Anonymous left is consistent with my experience. My father's LDL was in the 40s under "control" with statins. He died of a heart attack less than a week after passing a stress test. Reviewing his Berkeley lipid tests, he was solid LDL pattern B, though his trigs and HDL were enviable.

  • Anonymous

    7/20/2010 1:37:26 AM |

    i have a question as a neurosurgeon who completely thinks that Cholesterol is immaterial.  Do you Dr Davis as a cardiologist value the VAP or the HS CRP in your practice for true cardiac risk.  All my reading points to HS CRP......I am not sure that the VAP does anything unless you have a genetic predisposition.  Is this correct thinking or not?  Dr. K

  • Dr. William Davis

    7/20/2010 2:16:24 AM |

    Judging from the comments, a lot more conversation on small LDL is in order.

    It's actually quite simple, but the world floods us with misinformation hell bent on leading us towards statins and the small LDL CREATING low-fat diet.

    I will address these issues in forthcoming posts.

  • Peter

    7/20/2010 5:20:44 PM |

    If I want to find out my small particle number what test should I request.

  • Bob

    7/20/2010 8:48:26 PM |

    I am the original poster with the July 2007 blood test results. My April 2010 test results are as follows:
    Total = 129
    HDL = 79
    TRG = <45
    LDL = N/A
    non HDL = 50
    TC/HDL = 1.6

    Same meds 185 lbs.

    Am I killing myself with these numbers?

  • Anonymous

    7/20/2010 11:40:07 PM |

    Do you still have the small LDL pattern?

  • Bob

    7/21/2010 12:01:14 AM |

    Anonymous said...
    Do you still have the small LDL pattern?
    -------------------------------

    No, I have not had that tested since 2007- a university medical center performed that test and was not worried with the LDL pattern B results. No VAP tests since, only the standard lipid tests.

  • David

    7/21/2010 12:52:55 AM |

    @Peter-

    To find out your small LDL particle number, have your doctor order an NMR LipoProfile. You can also order these yourself without a doctor (very inexpensively) from places like privatemdlabs.com. You just order the test online, go to a local blood drawing station at your convenience, and look for the results to be emailed to you in a couple days. That's what I do. Super easy.

    David

  • Philip Barr

    8/2/2010 4:56:45 PM |

    Great thread in this blog. Bob, you have good advice here. I am also a big Niacin enthusiast and often use it in combination with a natural lipid lowering group of supplements: Triplichol + Niacin.
    Regarding your comment last month "Am I killing myself..." . You have to know that you are doing the best you can, and holding a positive mental attitude is extremely important as well. In my mind/body medicine fellowship we taught people stress management as well as doing the exercise and nutrition side. Weaving this into internal medicine has been rewarding.

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Power in Numbers

Power in Numbers



In his book, The Wisdom of Crowds, author James Surowiecki begins with the story of an ox judging competition in which 800 people—not ox experts nor breeders, just ordinary people attending a county fair—were asked to guess the weight of the ox. The competition was conducted by a scientist, Francis Galton, who held a low opinion of the intelligence of the average person, remarking that “the stupidity and wrong-headedness of many men and women being so great as to be scarcely credible.” He hoped to prove, by examining the various guesses, that the average person had no idea of how to judge the real answer. After all participants casted their written votes, Galton tallied up the total and averaged the result: 1,197 pounds—just one pound off from the real weight of 1,198 pounds. Few individuals actually guessed the correct weight themselves but, when the opinions of many were combined, the result was near-perfect.

Crowds can also be a source of irrational behavior, panic, and stampede. Witness any modern football or soccer game, for instance, in which fights break out over an issue as minor as a disputed call or a heckle. Or go back through history to the countless events when mass hysteria ruled, such as the Salem Witch Trials or Orson Welles’ War of the Worlds radio broadcast.

Let’s put aside examples of mass emotional chaos of the sort that causes crowds to stampede store doors on Black Friday. Let’s focus instead on conscious, considered, thoughtful opinions. We all accept that there are as many opinions on issues as there are people, not uncommonly with widely divergent views. But can we, as Galton’s famous experiment did, combine the opinions of many and come away with some fruitful insight—the correct answer? Just as the people participating in Galton’s experiment were not experts, so Cureality participants—a crowd-sourced collection of opinions—are not experts. If we were to poll everyone to identify their area of expertise or experience, it would likely include finance, the retail industry, raising children, or teaching—but not health. Yes, we have experts curating the direction of content, but we also crowd-source collective opinion.

Right now, Cureality is based on existing science, the philosophy of self-directed health, combined with guidance and community to help the participant along in the sometimes complex world of health questions. But as our processes and procedures improve, can we—like Galton’s ox weight guessers—come away with coalescent wisdom, answers to our health questions, near-perfect solutions to health conditions that have eluded the “experts” for centuries?

I think that we can. No, I know that we can. We enter a new age in information and harness the power of the crowd-sourcing of solutions, even when no single individual has the complete answer herself.

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Lipoprotein testing

Lipoprotein testing

This is an update of a post I made about a year ago. However, I'm reposting it since the question comes up so often.


How can I get my lipoproteins tested?
This question came up on our recent online chat session and comes up frequently phone calls and e-mails.

If lipoprotein testing is the best way to uncover hidden causes of coronary heart disease, but your doctor is unable, unknowledgeable, or unwilling to help you, then what can you do?

There are several options:

1) Get the names of physicians who will obtain and interpret the test for you. That’s the best way. However, it is also the most difficult. Lipoprotein testing, despite over a decade of considerable scientific exploration and validation in thousands of research publications, still remains a sophisticated tool that only specialists in lipids will use. But this provides you with the best information on you’re your lipoproteins mean.
2) If you don’t have a doctor who can provide lipoprotein testing and interpretation, go to the websites for the three labs that actually perform the lipoprotein tests: www.liposcience.com (NMR); www.berkeleyheartlab.com (electropheresis or GGE); www.atherotech.com (ultracentrifugation). None of them will provide you with the names of actual physicians. They can provide you with the name of a local representative who will know (should know) which doctors in your area are well-acquainted with their technology. I prefer this route to just having a representative identify a laboratory in your area where the blood sample can be drawn, because you will still need a physician to interpret the results¾this is crucial. The test is of no use to you unless someone interprets it intelligently and understands the range of treatment possibilities available. Don’t be persuaded by your doctor if he/she agrees to have the blood drawn but has never seen the test before. This will be a waste of your time. That’s like hoping the kid next door can fix your car just because he says he fixed his Mom’s car once. Interpretation of lipoproteins takes time, education, and experience.

3) Seek out a lipidologist. Lipidologists are the new breed of physician who has sought out additional training and certification in lipid and lipoprotein disorders. Sometimes they’re listed in the yellow pages, or you can search online in your area. One drawback: Most lipidologists have been heavily brainwashed by the statin industry and tend to be heavy drug users.

4) Contact us. I frankly don’t like doing this because I feel that I can only provide limited information through this method and, frankly, it is very time consuming. I provide a written discussion of the implications and choices for treatment with the caveat to discuss them with your doctor, since I can’t provide medical advice without a formal medical relationship. We also charge $75 for the interpretation. But it’s better than nothing.

5) Make do with basic testing. Basic lipids along with a lipoprotein(a), C-reactive protein, fibrinogen, and homocysteine would provide a reasonable facsimile of lipoprotein testing. You’ll still lack small LDL and postprandial (after-eating) information, but you can still do reasonably well if you try to achieve the Track Your Plaque targets of 60-60-60. It’s sometimes a necessary compromise.

Our discussions on the Track Your Plaque Forum have impressed me with the difficulty many people encounter in getting lipoproteins drawn and interpreted. Some of our Members have been very resourceful identifying blood draw laboratories around the country, such as Lab Safe, that will at least provide the blood draw service.

I wish it was easier and we are working on some ideas to facilitate this nationwide. It will take time.

In 20 years, this will be a lot easier when doctors more commonly use lipoprotein testing. But for now, you can still obtain reasonably good results choosing one of the above alternatives.

Comments (5) -

  • wccaguy

    10/19/2007 5:08:00 PM |

    I found this blog and found and joined the Track Your Plaque (TYP) program 7 weeks ago now.

    I struggled to figure out how to get the right blood testing done per Dr. Davis for several weeks.  If I knew then what I know now, here are the steps I would take without thinking about it and which are consistent with the TYP program.  I'm sure Dr. Davis will correct me if I advocate anything he opposes.

    1)  Go to LipoScience.com and order the NMR test from LabSafe.  The specific link appears below.  Dr. Davis, in multiple forum or blog posts has stated that he prefers the LipoScience NMR above the other two blood tests he mentions in his post.  The NMR test ran about $100 when I ordered it.  You'll get the paperwork or a phone call in a couple days with a list of blood draw centers in your area.  Here's a link to the page with the LabSafe Order icon.

    http://www.lipoprofile.com/control.cfm?id=69

    When you order the NMR test, BE SURE to add the LipoProtein(a) (aka LP(a)) test to your order.

    2)  Go to the Life Extension Foundation (LEF.org) website and order a Vitamin D test.  Dr. Davis would certainly say that the Vitamin D test is less a priority than #1 above but, hey, for about $47 or $62 more you can get the test out of the way at the same time that you do the NMR test.  Here's the link to the LEF Vitamin D test.

    http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/itemLC081950.html

    ==>> The two LipoScience tests and the LEF Vitamin D test can be done at LabCorp drawing centers.  So, if you order them at the same time and wait a week to get all the paperwork you can get all the blood drawn in a single lab visit.

    So, there, about $200 outside of insurance reimbursement, boom, done...  in a week...

    Ok... That's all well and good but now you're thinking to yourself... "I need a Doctor's evaluation just like Dr. Davis has recommended in this blog post."

    Well, I think Dr. Davis has significantly UNDERSTATED the value of joining his Track Your Plaque program for what, $40 for the first 3 months and $19 for every quarter after that?

    Once you join the TYP program, you get access to the TYP forum.  Once you get your blood test results a week or so after the blood draw then you post those results (anonymously) to the forum and ask for advice about what to do.  Forum members who know what they're talking about (because they've been following Dr. Davis' work for a while) will provide you with feedback about what your numbers mean and what you need to do and can do about them.

    Since I became a member, Dr. Davis has personally answered each post also unless the post didn't really require a reply.  Usually he replies within 24-48 hours.  Can you get an appointment with any doctor more qualified than he is to provide feedback in less time?  Well, no, you can't.  And then, when you have follow up questions, you can post those questions and get solid answers from other members or from Dr. Davis... about blood testing, heartscans, supplements, diet, etc.

    I suppose you could ask for a personalized report from him for $75 as well.  My impression is that it wouldn't say much more than what he would say to you anyway in the forum.

    From the forum, you'll often be referred to one or more of dozens of special reports Dr. Davis has written on the most critical issues related to coronary artery disease, including all the most harmful results you may learn of through the blood testing you got done.

    One of the most important things about the forum is this:  Forum members, who have been doing the TYP program for a while, often post their 1 year results.  It's incredibly inspiring to read about folks reducing their coronary plaque measured by CT heart scans and improving their blood lipoprotein numbers.

    So, 20 days, start to finish, less than $250 outside of insurance reimbursement, boom, you're armed with the information you need to move forward.

    7 to 10 days from initial blood draw ordering to getting the blood draw done.  7 to 10 days from blood draw to receiving your results and getting world-class feedback from Dr. Davis and TYP members under his tutelage on your specific numbers that you post anonymously.

  • Dr. Davis

    10/19/2007 9:41:00 PM |

    wccaguy--

    Excellent points about vit D and practical ways to get this done.

    And thanks for the wonderful comments.

  • Anonymous

    10/20/2007 5:23:00 AM |

    How do we avail ourselves of the opportunity to send you our results for $75?  

    I saw an "anti-aging" doctor who insisted I have the Atherotech VAP test, but frankly in my follow-up visit, I don't remember him saying much about the results.  In fairness, he ran about dozens of other tests as well, including extensive hormone tests, so the discussion may have gotten lost among discussion of the other test results, but he also spent a lot of time trying to sell me expensive vitamin "infusions" and other alternative therapies.

  • Dr. Davis

    10/20/2007 2:39:00 PM |

    Just forward your lipoprotein results to contact@trackyourplaque.com. The link is on the website.

    I'd like to make clear, however, that I discourage use of this route. It is  a last resort.

  • buy jeans

    11/2/2010 7:43:50 PM |

    I frankly don’t like doing this because I feel that I can only provide limited information through this method and, frankly, it is very time consuming. I provide a written discussion of the implications and choices for treatment with the caveat to discuss them with your doctor, since I can’t provide medical advice without a formal medical relationship. We also charge $75 for the interpretation. But it’s better than nothing.

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