The part of the study that caught my attention was "Current and former smokers had higher incident CAC rates than never smokers, but this difference was not statistically significant once other risk factors were considered. "

Dr Davis,

I recently came across your blog and it peaked my interest. I have been tracking my lipids for several years now.

Let me give you a little background. My dad had by-pass surgery when he was in his forties. He spent the rest of his life watching his diet and lipids and blood pressure. In 2005 he died from coronary failure a month after turing 71.

Because of my family history, and lipid levels (LDL 130, HDL <40), my physician wanted to start me on advicor. I resisted and tried to moderate my lipids through diet and exercise. I used the low fat diet approach and got nowhere. So I started on Advicor late in 2003. By March of 2004 my profile was right where my doctor wanted it: LDL 76, HDL 41, TriG 98. I continued on Advicor and had my lipid profile and liver enzymes checked every 6 months. I started keeping my scores in a spreadsheet and have been tracking them ever since.

After taking Advicor for a while I started reading about the side effects, about the additional predictors for heart disease, and the limitations of the physician "approved" diets.

After doing all this reading, I wanted to try once again to moderate my lipids through diet. In January 2006 I stopped taking advicor and changed my diet so as to reduce carbohydrate. I started eating cheese omlets cooked in butter for breakfast. I did not avoid red meat. I stopped eating rice, potatoes, and white flours, etc. As a result of these changed my HDL went up from 40 to 50. My TriG went down to a low of 73. Unfortunately, my LDL went up to 130-140. So after about a year I went back on Advicor but kept my diet similar (except I went back to whole grain cereal for breakfast). The other change I made last year is I started on an aggressive exercise program. I exercise 4-5 times a week for 50-60 minutes, keeping my heart rate at the 80% level. I also got a bicycle and started biking on the weekends (that has been quite fun and rewarding - I did an MS-150 ride this past October). I've only lost a few pounds 210 to 195. At 6'3" my BMI is barely in the "normal" range. I have recently switched Doctors due to other factors, but my new doctor wants to keep me on Advicor.

My questions are these. Am I just fooling myself into a false sense of security by taking Advicor and monitoring my lipids? Should I continue this plan or make some mods?

I anticipate that you will recommend a CT scan. Are they costly? Covered by insurance? Require a Dr's referral? What levels of radiation exposure do they impose?

I look forward to hearing your reply.

thats very interesting. The "conventional" risks only explain about 12% of plague increase and yet its well documented that statins reduce heart attack by somewhere between 30 and 40%.

Hi, Barry-


Thanks for your interest. However, I cannot answer direct medical questions, as good as they are.

I would invite you to look at the website that this blog accompanies, www.trackyourplaque.com.

Using conventional cholesterol as your index of risk is a fool's game. I could introduce you to hundreds of people who've had heart attacks and bypass surgery who thought they were being well served by conventional cholesterol. In my view, it is a model-T of medical testing.

I didn't find much value in this report because it doesn't look at percent changes in CAC, which seems to me to be the most important parameter to judge if plaque is growing at an unacceptable rate. Another thing about it, they didn't consider lipoprotein subclasses, but haven't most or all of the MESA subjects had NMR testing? Combining Otvos' NMR data on the MESA population with the CAC percent change data from this study could give some real insight into how and why plaque progresses. It looks like no one is going to do such a study. Is there any way a member of the public can get the raw data from the MESA studies, so we can do our own analysis? After all, MESA was funded by public funds, wasn't it?

To my knowledge, NMR lipoprotein analysis was not performed as part of this study, or at least used for this type of analysis to predict events or progression of calcium scoring.

Yes, NMR results were not used in the study, but the study was done on 5756 subjects who participated in the MESA test. Mora did a study of the NMR results 5538 MESA participants, but didn't look at CAC progression (Atherosclerosis, 2007 May;192(1):211-7) Isn't it a pretty good possibility that these studies were both done on the same basic group of MESA participants? If so, the data is out there to do a study of the effect of lipoprotein subclasses on CAC progression, it just hasn't been done yet.

Is it possible that the MESA data could be made available to us, or is the data totally  controlled by the people who collected it?

Hi, Harry--

I do believe that access is obtainable, though I am unsure how restricted. Go to http://www.mesa-nhlbi.org/default.aspx# for application information. I would like to do the same when some research time has been freed up.

Dr. Davis, from reading the MESA website, it looks like the MESA people aren't going to release the data except to qualified researchers working for established institutions or companies, and who will publish their results in a peer-reviewed journal. They aren't interested in making the data available to the general public, where it could be misinterpreted, thereby casting doubt on the overall MESA project.

That leaves people like me out, because I just want to play with the data and look for possible correlations that haven't yet been investigated, like the effect of lipoprotein subclasses on CAC progression. Unless some established research group becomes interested in doing such a study and publishing the results, it probably won't get done. It's a bit frustrating, because it looks like the data is all there to do such a study, but there is no way to get them to release the data.

It will probably take a fairly significant expenditure of time and analysis to investigate this and publish the results, so it will probably take a full time research group to do it. With all the other things you are doing, it may be difficult for you to take the time to do this kind of study. Perhaps with your contacts with clinical research people who might be interested in investigating this, (e.g., Otvos, Raggi, Budoff, Rumberger?) you could get the ball rolling.

Also, it looks like a person can't get the data unless they specify exactly what they are looking for, which sort of rules out looking for correlations that haven't been previously suspected. There is something to be said for shoveling all the data into a stepwise multiple regression program and seeing what pops up as the most significant parameters, but with the tight controls they have on releasing data, this isn't likely to happen, which is unfortunate for those of us who have a personal interested in prevention.

Hi, Harry--

All is not lost. It may take a while, but there may be some possibilities.

I've been giving it some thought. I can't give it high priority right now, given the need to get some of our own data analyzed and published. But I believe it is something we should explore in future.

--Conventional risk factors like LDL cholesterol, diabetes, and excess weight explain only a tiny fraction of why someone develops coronary atherosclerotic plaque as represented by a heart scan score.

I would like to know if this works with iced green tea as well. I used a method of one meal per day to loose 50+ pounds. I found it pretty easy, all in all, but have regained about 20 now and need to get back on it. I think I will give iced green tea a try! (I'm not crazy about hot green tea, but like it fine iced)

I use tea as a method of extending eating intervals.  It works well.  I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the "upper" effect.  Ie.  uppers reduce appetite as a result of blocked sensory.

I find fasting and sensory blocking to be counter-productive.

May be other effects but caffeine and it's cousin theobromine in the tea are pretty reliable appetite suppressants.  But isn't getting jacked up (even if only a little) a bit counter productive to some of the potential benefits of fasting?  The idea is to rest your physiology while catabolism is in full swing. Activating the sympathetic nervous system so you don't have to experience the sensations you don't like during the early stages of fasting does not seem to me to really promote that.

Yes, green tea reduces my hunger; I just use Tetley in the bag. Some of the greens do not have a satiating effect on me, nor do any of the black teas. Coffee increases hunger for me. Bullion cubes or OXO packets also help. I make a 1.5 l thermos, and suck on that until its done. Some days 3 or 4 of them in a day. I think I have more hunger than most people, but I am down 55 kgs, 2 to 4 years ago and have been down for 2 years.

The other thing that helps me is chew-able Vitamin C, a couple of 500s any time I feel hungry. It seems to raise BG, possible due to BG sparing, as it is required for far oxidation, or inside cell far transport, depending on who is explaining. Two 500's raise my BG form 4.0 to 5.3 -- OK US 72 to 95.
I am off wheat mostly; occasionally Clam chowder, sausages, and a few crackers for low BG issues. One cracker raises BG 1.5 at 15 mins.

Thanks for the one hour BG idea. Some of my higher protein meals were a problem, like 280 Calories of canned salmon ran my BG to 9.0 (OK 162). And my doctor says I an not diabetic but my a.m. BG sure is erratic, 4.0 to 6.2 this week.

My experience is similar.

Chris

Hey Phyllis, I'm with you. I have been drinking 4 cups green tea made with tea bags and then chilled and have noticed that I'm not as hungry but didn't really connect it with the tea itself. I need to lose 50 lbs and I like the idea of one meal a day.

Green tea, or any tea actually, makes me a little ill on an empty stomach.  Not sure but believe it is the tannins.  I also was consuming a lot of green/white tea while fasting and I just felt really acidic and my face got red splotches, which seems to coincide with acidity.  I know the net result is supposed to be alkaline for green/white tea but that has not been my experience.  Recently, I've been adding a tablespoon of apple cider vinager to a cup of warm water.  Went a fairly easy 18 hours today but did break down and had four or five macadamia nuts around 12 hours in.

I absolutely drink green and lightly oxidized oolongs during my fasts.   It curbs the hunger and provides focus.  Been doing it for 2.5 years.

After millennia of human starvation, to think that we still have tons to learn about fasting used for health purposes!

Phyllis--While I've not tried it personally, nor do I know of any formal data, I expect that iced green tea--provided it is real brewed green tea, and not the bottled variety--should work every bit as well.

I am unable to drink green tea at all on an empty stomach, I will absolutely throw up if I do.  I end up with pullovertothesideoftheroadI'mgoingtopukeyesseriously!".   I actually threw up all over my suit once which was really special.  Green tea with food often makes me queasy as well.  I am allergic to oak so I think there may be a tannin connection as some heavy oak wines are problematic for me.

I am making today a fast day. I have been drinking a mix of green and white tea but it is decaffeinated.  How often should one fast?

For those who get dizzy on green tea, try puerh tea.  It is a fermented green tea that is also much lower in caffeine and it taste much better than green.  It is the equivalent of drinking an aged red wine over 2 buck chuck.

This question has been around for quite some time,  but no one seems to know the answer for certain.

Theoretically at least, consuming antioxidants during fasting could be detrimental to autophagy (removing "junk" cells), since antioxidants might suppress the stress response from fasting. This is why some studies show antioxidants and exercise are a bad combination -- you *want* some stress to happen so that the body can adapt to it.

Then again, there is the theory that small amounts of antioxidants actually work through the same mechanism as fasting and exercise -- hormesis. In which case fasting + antioxidants might complement each other. But that's just speculation.

What we do know from studies is that green tea seems to increase weight loss, for example when combined with calorie restriction (and thus should apply to fasting):

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-increases-weight-loss-during.html

And when combined with exercise:

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/03/green-tea-extract-increases-insulin.html
http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/02/green-tea-extract-enhances-abdominal.html

And when combined with capsaicin (from chilli pepper), it reduces the feeling of hunger and thus calorie intake:

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-and-capsaicin-reduce-hunger.html

So all in all, whatever the mechanism is, if you're fasting just for the sake of losing weight, I'd say green tea is a pretty good bet.

- JLL

Would depend on the length of fasts, but the East Stop East method advocates two fasts per week.  My fasts are now usually shorter, as they kind of trained me to stop grazing. I usually don't bother with breakfast now. The more you eat, the more you want to eat sometimes.

I'm subscribed to your blog, but since  you changed format the posts haven't been showing up in my mail box.  I tried to re-subscribe, but am told I'm already subscribed.  How do I get back in the loop?

Nina

Anyone not receiving email versions of this blog:

I wonder if the shift over to the new platform caused a few glitches. My blog IT help is out of commission temporarily. Therefore, please sign up again at the top.

Sorry about that.

Yes, I completely agree with you! I went 90% wheat and sugar free from November 2010 to February 2011 and lost a whopping 2 pounds. It wasn't until I went to 95% or more wheat free that I was able to start losing weight. I am now 100% wheat free and I have lost 36.2 pounds in 15 weeks. I have also been able to significantly cut my caloric intake to 500-700 calories per day (sometimes less than 500) using iced jasmine green tea. I truly believe that a diet that is lower in calories is better for health. I typically drink 6-8 glasses a day and I really enjoy it. It helps immensely with any hunger I may have and completely satisfies my sense to eat. I use any of the varieties available in tea bag (Numi, Two Leaves and a Bud, Stash, and Mighty Leaf are my favorites). I typically choose whatever's on sale. I also drink a full glass every morning prior to eating and that also seems to stimulate my colon which is a bonus as well when consuming such low caloric counts.

On a cholesterol and BG level, my family genetics are something that should be studied. While I started my diet at 234.8# on 2/15/2011 (I'm 5'3" and 47 y/o female) my total cholesterol was 167 and my HDL was 54. My 102 y/o grandmother however, has a total cholesterol of 155 and an HDL of 115! My 76 y/o mother also has the same great results but her HDL is "only" 109. Neither of them are on any medication for cholesterol and both of them eat a diet fully based on things we berate on this blog (cookies, bread, ice cream, fried foods, etc). Neither are overweight either. I'm eager to see what my levels become when I reach my goal weight. Maybe I can surpass that HDL of 115!

I tried that before I posted and it tells me I'm already subscribed.

Nina

About 15 years ago I went on a fast and had only water.  The fast lasted for 10 days.  No green tea.  Just water.  After 18 hours, I completely lost any hunger.  Meanwhile I continued to cook meals for my family.  I also continued to go to work every day.

The experience seemed wonderful.  I had been suffering badly from asthma, and all symptoms disappeared!  I could have kept going forever without eating.  However, after 10 days I started to have problems with urination.  I began excreting small, hard pellets.

I went to the doctor, and he exploded.  "You bloody fool!" he said.  I had altered the ketone content of my blood.

So I started eating again.  My first meal was brown rice (no salt).  It was the most beautiful meal I ever had.  Gradually I returned to normal eating.  Gradually I returned to my asthma symptoms. Gradually all meals started tasting the same.

Did I lose weight?  I'm not sure, as my ketone problem overshadowed all else.  Did I need green tea or anything else to curb my appetite?  No, plain water (not even distilled or bottled water, but tap water) was good enough. Do I recommend fasting?  In moderation.  10 days is far too long.

Is the fluoride content of any tea (Camellia sinensis) not an issue?  Data on ppm fluoride vary but they all appear to be quite high and much higher than water fluoridation levels.

Try Jasmine Tea which is green tea with Jasmine flowers.  Much tastier.
I don't like plain green tea myself, but I love Jasmine tea.

There is only one problem with green tea: Pesticides.
Most green tea is imported from India or China because it is the cheapest. On testing, a serious amount of pesticides, fungicides, microcides is found regularly. I wonder if this diminishes the health aspect of green tea.
I used to buy organic green tea from Japan but after Fukushima that option is also out.
Still, certified organic is the only option left, I suppose.
Renfrew

Just tried again and I get the same message 'You're already subscribed'.  Pity that Feedburner no longer delivers to me.

Nina

Started IF HFLC diet three months ago. 30 lbs lost and A1c down to
5.1 !! (was 6.7 ) . Curiously I have been drinking green tea during the daily 18 hour fasts and hunger is a rare occurance,  hunger pains last only a few seconds. The tea helps,  body and mind trained to not think about food until
nightly free for all. Thank you, Dr. Davis and contributors>

2 Gabriella

Flouride IS an issue with green tea. There are known cases of flourde poisoning with excessive green tea drinking - woman drinking equivalent of 20-30 green tea cups per day. This isn't something to worry about on regular usage but if you do it on IF with reduced nutrient input and more frequently to reduce appetite it can become a problem.

White tea has lower content of fluoride as it is harvested when plant is still young. It is much more expensive but overall better then green tea due to less processing and lower fluoride content.

Coffee works for me absolutely amazing in reducing hunger. To some people, however, it works the opposite way. My friend develops hand tremor, nervousness, and heat. The same thing she got from the green tea but not other teas. Caffeine might be problematic for some I guess, or maybe tannin. We are currently in the process of isolation of such substance.

To reduce appetite, I found the following valuable:
- Garlic, fresh, in tomato juice (parsley can be included to block the smell). The capsule doesn't work.
- High intensity exercise, short bursts of 15-20 minutes will shut down digestive engine and you will not be able to eat for hour at least.
- Marijuana restriction - its usage during fat loss might be problematic due to activation of CB1/anandamide system.
- Periodic IF can learn body to handle prolonged food abstinence. I find that 16-24 hours fast is enough.
- Almonds, 10-15g, are cool, especially if you tend to go crazy before sleep - its mostly fat which doesn't rise insulin during night. 2g CHO, 3.5g MUFA, 1g PUFA, 2g P is enough to make your hunger go down at least a bit and still keep your insulin down.
- Water

I would suggest extensive supplementation during IF - especially Vit C (at least 2g as frequent as possible), Mg, Iodine, Selenium, Idebenon.

Drs. Davis or Taylor (or anyone else) have you noticed any issues with accumulated caffeine intake from multiple cups of Green Tea throughout the day?

Dr. Davis, I hadn't heard about the dangers of pesticide use relating to green tea (as mentioned by Renfew, above)...is this a viable concern?  Since green tea is loaded with antioxidants, do the benefits outweigh the risks in this case?

I have been drinking about two to three cups of Tazo Zen Green Tea for quite awhile now (hot, as well as chilled), and enjoy it very much.  It does seem to curb cravings quite well.  I also notice increased energy without the edgy side effects that coffee sometimes causes.  Before Tazo, I was not a big fan of the taste of green tea, but the Zen blend also contains lemon verbena, spearmint leaves and lemongrass, which enhances the flavor and makes it quite delicious--providing an "aromatherapy experience" along with the tea consumption.  

Thank you for your informative comment JLL!

me too!i keep hearing about green tea for fasting, so i took it on day 2 i think and was detoxing to fast cos i took it on a empty stomach....:/

I drink the Tazo Zen Green Tea from Starbucks. I prefer this green tea over any others, however I have noticed extreme dizziness when I drink this tea. Has anyone experienced this? I even bought the tea bags to brew at home, I do not add any sweetener and love the taste. I occasionally drink black tea or soda and do not get the same dizzy feeling, therefore I believe it is not caffeine causing me to feel dizzy it's just green tea. Any suggestions or comments? I like the benefits of green tea but not sure it's worth the dizziness.

Wacky. No, I'm not sure why this happens.

Perhaps its some mixture or proportion of the theaflavins or other components. There are hundreds of green tea preparations available. It might be worth finding a happy alternative.

I have been using green tea for years in weight loss.  You are right, it is not a "speedy" remedy and you will only recognize small affects it has, however, it does work.  On average, it is said that you can burn anywhere from 70 to 80 calories a day drinking green tea.  This is assuming you are drinking at least 3 to 4 cups daily.  It should be combined with water and a healthy diet and exercise.

About the dizziness, I had severe vertigo in the middle of the night, i.e. at 3 am (my blood pressure was 130/100 pr 90), and the day and the night before sleeping, I consumed 4 mugs of green tea. The vertigo was associated with vomiting (which relieved the vertigo for a while). The vertigo lasted till the next day (vomited 4x). The green tea was a gift from a friend who came back from China-loose dried leaves. After that episode, I think I can't make myself to drink green tea again.

I sometimes do a morning 'flush' of green tea, up to 4 freshly brewed mugfuls, with the addition of a squeeze of fresh lemon, which complements the taste and gives extra benefits, vitamin c and supporting detoxification.

I recently saw a BBC documentary which demonstrated an optimal brew time of 7 minutes for maximum anti-oxidant release.

Also, the cooled teabags are an excellent beauty treatment for the eye area, squeeze excess moisture and relax for a few minutes.

Am reluctant to extend beyond midday due to stimulating effect of caffeine, how about switching to other teas that deliver other useful benefits? Ginger, fennel, liquorice come to mind.

Blessings of health