"Heart scans are experimental"

Let me warn you: This is a rant.

It is prompted by a 44-year old woman. She has a very serious lipoprotein disorder. Her family experiences heart attacks in their 40s and 50s. I asked for a heart scan. Her insurance companied denied it.

This is nothing new: heart scans, like mammograms, have not enjoyed reimbursement from most insurers despite the wealth of data and growing acceptance of this "mammogram" of the heart.

However, 10 minutes on the phone, and the "physician" (what well-meaning physician can do this kind of work for an insurance company is beyond me) advised me that, while CT heart scans for coronary calcium scoring are not covered, CT coronary angiograms are.

Now, I've been witnessing this trend ever since the big players in CT got involved in the game, namely Philips, Siemens, Toshiba, and GE. These are enormous companies with hundreds of billions of dollars in combined annual revenues. They, along with the lobbying power of cardiology organizations like the American College of Cardiology, have gotten behind CT coronary angiograms. This is most likely the explanation of why CT coronary angiograms have rather handily obtaining insurance reimbursement. Interestingly, the insurance company I was speaking to is known (notorious?) for very poor reimbursement practices.

A CT heart scan, when properly used, generates little revenue, a few hundred dollars to a scan center, barely enough to pay for a device that costs up to $2 million. However, CT coronary angiograms, in contrast, yield around $2000 per test. More importantly, they yield downstream revenues, since CT angiograms are performed as preludes to conventional heart catheterizations, angioplasty, stents, bypass surgery, etc. Now we're talking tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars revenue per test.

What puzzles me is that much of that increased cost comes out of the insurance company. Why would they support such tests if it exposes them to more costs? I'm not certain. It could be the greater pressures exerted by the big CT companies and powerful physician organizations. I seriously doubt that the insurance companies truly believe that heart scans for coronary calcium scoring are "experimental" while CT coronary angiograms are "proven." If all we did was compare the number of clinical studies that validate both tests, we'd find that the number of studies validating heart scans eclipses that of coronary angiograms several fold. Experimental? Hardly.

The smell of money by physicians eager to jump on the bandwagon of a new revenue-producing procedure is probably enough to have them lobby insurers successfully. In contrast, plain old heart scans just never garnered the kind of vigorous and vocal support, since nobody gets rich off of them.

If CT coronary angiograms are sufficiently revenue producing that my colleagues and the CT scanner manufacturers have managed to successfully lobby the health insurers, even one as financially "tight" as the one I spoke to today, well then I take that as testimony that money drives testing, as it does the behavior of hospitals, many of my colleagues, and can even force the hand of insurers.

Comments (25) -

  • Cindy Moore

    12/19/2007 12:51:00 AM |

    It seems like everything medical is profit driven!!  One of my biggest irritants with insurance companies is the unwillingness to act pro-actively and approve preventative procedures, treatments, etc.

    They spend a fortune each year on statins, but won't cover heart scans. They spend millions on coronary bypass, PTCA, etc but they won't pay for inpatient smoking cessation programs, and many still have no coverage for lifestyle change programs!!

  • Peter

    12/19/2007 6:14:00 AM |

    Nice post this one. Just keep telling yourself; there is no conspiracy. The depth of complexity generated by billions of often quite small acts of personal greed, when combined together, does behave like a coherent plan. Eventually there may be studies looking at this as a phenomenon in its own right. The further out of the mainstream that you live, the more interesting it becomes to consider the hows and whys. No conspiracy, just human greed. Some small quanta of greed, some enormous. You even get personal greed combined with the will to do general good. Very complex.

    Peter

  • Anonymous

    12/19/2007 9:35:00 AM |

    Years ago, my baby was in NICU with a condition that seriously affected his immune system; the drs wanted him on breast milk to help boost the immune system, and since I wasn't always at the hospital anymore (I had returned to work by then), the drs wrote an order for a breast pump.

    Since I worked in that field, I asked the lactation specialist for a catalog of pumps from the same company the insurance company used, and found out the pump I *wanted* cost $300, but the pump the insurance comp wanted me to have cost $1000. I asked the lacto nurse about the pumps, and the cheaper one (shaped like a large purse with a shoulder strap) worked just as good as the more expensive pump (a boxy machine attached to a wheeled pole, like a short IV pole) was better if there were going to be many women pumping.

    Since it was just going to be me pumping, and the cheaper pump was so much easier to transport to work, I asked the insurance company if I could have the $300 version. They denied it, and I had to contest it with my lacto-specialist coworker's written letter that the cheaper one would work just as well.

    The insurance company's nurse told me she was glad I contested it with a letter from a lacto-specialist, because now the company would save money on pumps.

    WOW! It took somebody that had experience in that field with access to a specialist just to get an insurance company to change to a much cheaper, but just-as-effective, medical device. So your story doesn't surprise me at all. Insurance companies are either getting kickbacks, have too many layers of bureaucracy to approve anything different, or might just be dumb sometimes.

    S

  • Anonymous

    12/19/2007 12:43:00 PM |

    How did we get to this point that revenue generation overrides the care of patients?  Can we blame Hollywood for creating a myth of the health care provider that knows it all and worries endlessly over the health of patients, government and insurance companies not giving enough oversight over hospital practices, and/or patients not questioning enough the motives of health care providers?  What ever the answer, I imagine future generations will read about these times and cringe over the health care practices of today.

  • keith

    12/19/2007 1:21:00 PM |

    I asked my cardiologist to order a scan for me in a big boston hospital. My insurance wouldn't cover it until enough "risk factors" were documented on the claim form. The test was $270, money very well spent.

    What is sad is that most people believe patients' health is the medical community's primary concern. Also, interestingly, those with marginal insurance are forced to advocate for themselves and as such can, perversely, end up with better care.

    keith

  • Dr. Davis

    12/19/2007 1:24:00 PM |

    I truly get the sense that there are factors present that we are not privy to: behind-the-scenes maneuvering, closed-door politics, etc. It's surely not always in a health insurer's best interests to follow the policies often in place. So we can only conclude that something fishy is going on.

  • Dr. Davis

    12/19/2007 1:25:00 PM |

    You could be right.

    An inadvertent, collective evil?

  • Dr. Davis

    12/19/2007 1:37:00 PM |

    Yes, Keith. You make a crucial point.

    Caveat emptor, whether it's in the doctor's office, hospital, or used car lot. Watch your wallet and recognize that they all share one thing: they are profit-seeking operations with your welfare second.

  • Thomas

    12/19/2007 3:05:00 PM |

    This is NOT a defense of insurance cos, just an attempt to explain their possible thinking. One reason for an objection to CT heart scans is because there could be potentially very many ordered, relative to CT/angiograms. It is like a pyramid, with a much greater number of lower cost procedures resulting in a higher amount of claims submitted, and higher overall cost experience. So, they say no.

    I don't think insurance cos. engage in collusion with equipment makers or doctors. They just use a logic that isn't necessarily in my or your best interests.

  • Mike

    12/19/2007 3:36:00 PM |

    That is one reason that I am against mandatory medical insurance. The patient and doctor should decide what medical care is appropriate, not an insurance company.

  • Dr. Davis

    12/19/2007 4:55:00 PM |

    It may indeed be as simple as that. And, in fact, that is what I told many people who were frustrated by their insurer's failure to reimburse heart scans. However, more recently, I have begun to wonder if there is more to this question. I've just witnessed this phenomenon too often: When big money is involved, things happen. Heart scans do not make big money for anybody. CT angiograms provide potential for lots of big money.

  • Michael

    12/19/2007 7:54:00 PM |

    Out of curiosity, do insurance companies ever pay for heart scans, if they are considered high risk? That is, have had a heart attack, extremely high lipids, or some other heart disorder?

    The only rationale I can imagine for declining calcium scans, while paying for full CT scans, is what Thomas suggested -- it's a numbers game. Since generally speaking, only high risk people get CT scans, the numbers are relatively low. If everyone got calcium tests (although in the long run it'd pay off for them), insurance companies would have to pay a lot out of pocket now.

    But... if insurance companies paid for calcium scans for high risk people, it'd make sense both in the short and long term for them, I'd think. Then again, in my own experience, I find the behavior of my health insurance company bizarre. They'll gladly pay for physician visits/testing even when I tell them the doctor never actually did those things... yet decline certain tests I need just because less reliable (and cheaper) alternatives exist.

  • Thomas

    12/19/2007 11:52:00 PM |

    The evolution of the marketing and ins. coverage will be interesting to watch. For example, a hospital in the Chicago suburbs markets a 64 slice CT scan direct to the public for $99. No doctor referral needed. You can bet they figure stress tests and angios will follow. Nonetheless, you can get the scan about as cheap as possible.

    In my town far away, cardiologists won a turf war with radiologists to be the exclusive readers of these tests, and they aren't being marketed. And, the tests aren't on sale either. Local politics, and the ability to control patient flow, is probably the most important driver, but if you live in a large metro area, you may find what you're looking for at a decent cost.

  • Dr. Davis

    12/20/2007 4:54:00 AM |

    Some insurers do try and distinguish who is "high risk" or not, depending on conventional risk factors.

    Of course, the difficulty is that conventional risk factors fail to identify many people truly at high risk for heart disease and heart attack. In effect, health insurers have legislated who can or cannot obtain reimbursement for a heart scan.

  • MAC

    12/20/2007 8:11:00 AM |

    I have heard it expressed that insurance companies have no interest in preventative medicine. The benefits are too long term for them to see the results. People change jobs, change insurance carriers, etc.

  • Dr. Davis

    12/20/2007 12:37:00 PM |

    Yes, I believe that is true. From their perspective, better to pay lots for the occasional catastrophe rather than pay for the many more who would use preventive services. Insurance is not in our best interests, but of the collective financial good.

  • Anonymous

    12/20/2007 5:36:00 PM |

    Three years ago I had a stress test done due to chest pains and triglycerides as a risk factor.  I ended having an area of concern and my doctor wanted to do a CTA.  The insurance company approved it and I was all set up to go when I mentioned the test to my allergist.  She was concerned that I may have a reaction to the contrast dye, so the CTA was canceled and they sent me for a calcium score test.  The insurance company wouldn't pay the $195 for the test even though they were ready to pay a few thousand for the CTA!  Anyhow I came back with a big fat 0 for the test so the money was worth the piece of mind.

  • Dr. Davis

    12/21/2007 2:40:00 AM |

    What a great example of how useful cheap, simple heart scans can be. You also spared yourself over 90 chest x-rays of radiation.

  • g

    12/21/2007 4:26:00 AM |

    The latest Oprah mag Jan 2008 has this article about the first sign of heart disease/obstruction is 'fatigue' and reports that the MD may order a heart 'CT scan'... (this health writer is on TOP OF HER GAME -- unlike DR. Oz!!)

    Don't read the proposed 'treatment' -- the writer is not apparently informed on TYP yet!

    http://www.oprah.com/health/omag/health_omag_200801_fatigue_102.jhtml
    Most Often Overlooked Causes of Fatigue (2 or 4)

    Heart Trouble

    Fatigue is a distinct characteristic of cardiovascular disease in women, according to recent research. In one study of 515 female heart attack survivors, 70 percent reported unusual fatigue in the weeks before; just 57 percent had acute chest pain. In another study, fatigue was a symptom for women with dangerously clogged arteries that escaped notice on heart scans.

    Why it's overlooked: Only one in ten women realizes that heart disease is her biggest health threat. And emergency room doctors are six times more likely to give women with serious heart problems (as opposed to men) a clean bill of health.

    Other Symptoms: Shortness of breath. Indigestion. Pain in your shoulder, arm, or jaw. But for many women, nothing at all.

    Tests: Your doctor will order an exercise stress test or angiogram if she suspects clogged arteries in your heart. Because that test isn't always accurate in women, she may order a CT scan or echocardiogram as well. She'll also test your cholesterol, blood pressure, and blood sugar—diabetes can quadruple a woman's heart risk.

    Treatment: You may get a cholesterol-lowering statin and medicines to treat blood pressure, such as diuretics. You'll also be advised to follow a heart-healthy diet and get regular exercise.

    From Why Am I So Tired? in the January 2008 issue of O, The Oprah Magazine.

    THANK YOU! g

  • g

    12/22/2007 4:30:00 PM |

    FYI... Recent pubs -- 12/1/2007 and 12/15/2007 respectively

    Merry Xmas Dr. Davis! You have many buddies in more progressive countries! Regards, g

    (1) Non-invasive screening for coronary artery disease: calcium scoring
    Raimund Erbel1, Stefan Möhlenkamp1, Gert Kerkhoff2, Thomas Budde2, Axel Schmermund3
    http://heart.bmj.com/cgi/content/
    extract/93/12/1620

    Despite the decrease in overall mortality from coronary artery disease, the number of out-of-hospital deaths from myocardial infarction is in the range of 60% of all infarct related case fatalities.1 In patients with known risk of sudden cardiac death (SCD), such as survived resuscitation, left ventricular aneurysm or low left ventricular ejection fraction, the incidence of SCD is in the region of 30% per year. In the general population, it is only 0.5% per year.2 However, the absolute number in this group is 10 times higher than in the patient population with known SCD risk, reaching more than 300 000 case fatalities per year in the USA.2 Even renowned cardiologists such as Ronald W Campbellw1 and Jeffry M Isnerw2, who were experts on the topic of arrhythmias and myocardial infarction, suffered SCD. The MONICA (Monitoring trends and determinants in Cardiovascular disease) study reported that of all coronary . . . [Full text of this article]

    (2) Cardiac computed tomography: indications, applications, limitations, and training requirements

    Report of a Writing Group deployed by the Working Group Nuclear Cardiology and Cardiac CT of the European Society of Cardiology and the European Council of Nuclear Cardiology
    http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org
    /cgi/content/abstract/ehm544v1

    As a consequence of improved technology, there is growing clinical interest in the use of multi-detector row computed tomography (MDCT) for non-invasive coronary angiography. Indeed, the accuracy of MDCT to detect or exclude coronary artery stenoses has been high in many published studies. This report of a Writing Group deployed by the Working Group Nuclear Cardiology and Cardiac CT (WG 5) of the European Society of Cardiology and the European Council of Nuclear Cardiology summarizes the present state of cardiac CT technology, as well as the currently available data concerning its accuracy and applicability in certain clinical situations. Besides coronary CT angiography, the use of CT for the assessment of cardiac morphology and function, evaluation of perfusion and viability, and analysis of heart valves is discussed. In addition, recommendations for clinical applications of cardiac CT imaging are given and limitations of the technique are described.

  • g

    12/22/2007 4:42:00 PM |

    Another FYI...  HOLY MOLY This is why the lame Framingham misses the entire picture --- failure to take into acct that 70-80% of the population are on the Metabolic spectrum is like trying to see thru gauze blindfolds. very holey... (I guess it's good I can't access TYP right now... I'm spending my time otherwise well spent *ha*).  I LOVE the first line...'Coronary artery calcification is pathognomonic of coronary atherosclerosis.'  Hope you and your familia have a great holiday season -- full of wishes fulfilled and hope re-ignited!  Thanks for letting me loose *ha ha* Take care, g

    http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/
    content/abstract/50/23/2218

    J Am Coll Cardiol, 2007; 50:2218-2225(Published online 14 November 2007).

    CLINICAL RESEARCH: CORONARY ARTERY DISEASE
    Determinants of Progression of Coronary Artery Calcification in Type 2 Diabetes
    Role of Glycemic Control and Inflammatory/Vascular Calcification Markers
    Dhakshinamurthy Vijay Anand, MBBS, MRCP*,,*, Eric Lim, MBChB, MA, MRCP*, Daniel Darko, MD, MRCP, Paul Bassett, MSc, David Hopkins, BSc, MBChB, FRCP||, David Lipkin, BSc, MD, FRCP*,¶, Roger Corder, PhD, MRPharmS and Avijit Lahiri, MBBS, MSc, MRCP, FACC, FESC*
    * Cardiac Imaging and Research Centre, Wellington Hospital, London, United Kingdom

    Objectives: This study prospectively evaluated the relationship between cardiovascular risk factors, selected biomarkers (high-sensitivity C-reactive protein [hs-CRP], interleukin [IL]-6, and osteoprotegerin [OPG]), and the progression of coronary artery calcification (CAC) in type 2 diabetic subjects.

    Background: Coronary artery calcification is pathognomonic of coronary atherosclerosis. Osteoprotegerin is a signaling molecule involved in bone remodeling that has been implicated in the regulation of vascular calcification and atherogenesis.

    Methods: Three hundred ninety-eight type 2 diabetic subjects without prior coronary disease or symptoms (age 52 ± 8 years, 61% male, glycated hemoglobin [HbA1c] 8 ± 1.5) were evaluated serially by CAC imaging (mean follow-up 2.5 ± 0.4 years). Progression/regression of CAC was defined as a change 2.5 between the square root transformed values of baseline and follow-up volumetric CAC scores. Demographic data, risk factors, glycemic control, medication use, serum hs-CRP, IL-6, and plasma OPG levels were measured at baseline and follow-up.

    Results: Two hundred eleven patients (53%) had CAC at baseline. One hundred eighteen patients (29.6%) had CAC progression, whereas 3 patients (0.8%) had regression. Age, male gender, hypertension, baseline CAC, HbA1c >7, waist-hip ratio, IL-6, OPG, use of beta-blockers, calcium channel antagonists, angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors, statins, and Framingham/UKPDS (United Kingdom Prospective Diabetes Study) risk scores were univariable predictors of CAC progression. In the multivariate model, baseline CAC (odds ratio [OR] for CAC >400 = 6.38, 95% confidence interval [CI] 2.63 to 15.5, p < 0.001), HbA1c >7 (OR 1.95, CI 1.08 to 3.52, p = 0.03), and statin use (OR 2.27, CI 1.38 to 3.73, p = 0.001) were independent predictors of CAC progression.

    Conclusions: Baseline CAC severity and suboptimal glycemic control are strong risk factors for CAC progression in type 2 diabetic subjects.

    Why did they NOT look at 25(OH)D when they were looking at the osteo- whatever thingy. *uurrgghh*

  • g

    12/22/2007 5:03:00 PM |

    I like this guy... he proposes heart CTs for all T2DM to screen for silent MIs. just like colon CA screening... and breast CA screening... wow ya think?

    CAD in most people esp T2DM is diffuse and systemic (maybe someday we can CAC someone's wrist like we do for Bone Mineral Density testing for osteopenia/porosis screening at the local drugstore?)... and very accelerated when glucose and insulin are elevated (without a good mod/high healthy MUFA PUFA diet and systemic TYP strategies).
    http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/
    content/abstract/49/19/1918

    Noninvasive Screening for Coronary Atherosclerosis and Silent Ischemia in Asymptomatic Type 2 Diabetic Patients
    Is it Appropriate and Cost-Effective?
    George A. Beller, MD, MACC*
    Cardiovascular Division, Department of Medicine, University of Virginia Health System, Charlottesville, Virginia.

    Coronary artery disease (CAD) accounts for 65% to 80% of deaths in diabetic patients. The merits of screening asymptomatic type 2 diabetic patients for either Innocent the presence of coronary atherosclerosis by imaging of coronary calcification using cardiac computed tomography or (B) silent ischemia by stress myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI) remain controversial. Some observers have advocated for such noninvasive screening in at least the subset of the diabetic population who have significant clinical CAD risk factors, so that the highest risk patients for future cardiac events can be identified and offered more aggressive intensive medical therapy or coronary revascularization and optimum medical therapy. Computed tomography coronary calcium scanning could be the first noninvasive screening test in these clinically high-risk diabetic patients, followed by stress MPI to detect silent ischemia in those who exhibit high coronary calcium scores.

  • Dr. Davis

    12/23/2007 12:36:00 AM |

    Hi, G-

    As you see, some people in the medical community are waking up to the great usefulness of heart scans to detect hidden coronary plaque.

    However, it's going to be another five or more years before they also wake up to the idea of using it to TRACK the disease.

  • g

    12/23/2007 4:56:00 AM |

    Not unless you win global recognition for your achievements and TYP ...  Smile

    Can u imagine a world where the failure to offer TYP would be malpractice...for someone with diabetes? pre-diabetic? with Lp(a) or Homocysteinemia?  I do... and  who knows sooner than u might think.

    I think behind every genius-man, there stands a genius-woman. Once when I couldn't log on, couldn't access 'chat' and couldn't find reports when they were right in front of my *darn* NOSE... a wise woman told me 'you can't know everything.'  *ha ha* give her a hug for me Smile
    g

  • Anonymous

    1/2/2008 1:55:00 AM |

    Just a note to g regarding screening for osteoporosis at the wrist.  These are very ineffectual tests.  It is best to use the spine +/or hip as osteoporosis starts at the center of the body.  By the time it is detected in the distal extremities, you would already have significant bone loss. At least this is my understanding as a technologist. Could this also apply to artery disease?

Loading
Glucomania

Glucomania

As I suggested in a previous Heart Scan Blog post, a glucose meter is your best tool to:

1) Lose weight
2) Cure diabetes
3) Reduce or eliminate small LDL particles
4) Achieve anti-aging or age-slowing effects


But it means getting hold of a glucose meter and applying it in a very different way.

Diabetics typically check fasting morning glucose and again several times during the day to assess medication effects. But you and I can measure blood glucose to assess the immediate effects of food choices--two very different approaches.

The concept is simple: Check a blood glucose just prior to a food or meal of interest, then one hour after finishing.

Let's take two hypothetical breakfasts. First, oatmeal, a so-called "low-glycemic index" food. Slow-cooked, stone ground oatmeal with skim milk, a handful of walnuts, just a few blueberries.

Blood glucose just prior: 95 mg/dl
Blood glucose one hour after finish: 175 mg/dl

I made those numbers up, but this is a fairly typical response for many adults. (This is why "low-glycemic index" is an absurd notion.) This kind of response causes 1) glycation, the adverse effects of glucose modification of proteins that leads to cataracts, kidney disease, cartilage damage and arthritis, atherosclerosis, skin wrinkles, etc., 2) high insulin response that cascades into fat deposition, especially visceral fat ("wheat belly"), and 3) glucotoxicity, i.e., direct damage to the pancreas that can, over years, lead to diabetes.

Next day, let's try a breakfast of 3-egg omelet made with green peppers, sundried tomatoes, and olive oil.

Blood glucose just prior: 95 mg/dl
Blood glucose one hour after finish: 93 mg/dl

This is a meal of virtually zero-glycemic index. This kind of response triggers none of the effects experienced following the oatmeal. Repeated over time and you fail to trigger glycation, you stop provoking insulin, and visceral fat mobilizes rather than accumulates: you lose weight, particularly around the middle.

We therefore aim to keep the one-hour blood glucose 100 mg/dl or less. If you start with a high fasting blood glucose of, say, 118 mg/dl, then we aim to keep the one-hour after-eating blood glucose no higher than the pre-meal.

It works. Plain and simple.

This makes the primary care docs crazy: "How dare you check your blood sugar! You're not diabetic." In truth, blood glucose meters are relatively simple devices to use. The test strips and lancets will cost a few bucks. (The meters themselves are either low-cost or free, just like Gillette sometimes sends you a beautiful new razor for free but expects you to buy the blades). These are direct-to-consumer products. While a prescription written by your doctor for a glucose meter and supplies helps insurance cover the costs, you can easily get these devices without a prescription. Some stores, like Target, keep their devices out on the shelves with the shampoo and bath soap.

Warning: Anyone taking diabetes drugs will have to consult with their doctors about the safety of such an approach. Because this approach can actually cure diabetes in some people, if you are taking some diabetes drugs, especially glyburide, glipidize, and glimepiride, you can experience dangerously low blood sugars, just as any non-diabetic taking these drugs would.

Comments (52) -

  • Robert Burton Robinson

    2/8/2011 3:47:09 PM |

    Had a bowl of oatmeal less than one hour ago. Old-fashioned oats, artificial sweetener, cinnamon. Now I am wiped out. Tired, sleepy. I don't even need a glucose meter to tell me the oatmeal reeked havoc on my blood sugar.

    I always feel this way after eating certain carbs. Used to think old-fashioned oatmeal was okay. But it's just not. Not for me anyway. By the way, I'm hypoglycemic.

  • Steve Cooksey

    2/8/2011 3:50:18 PM |

    Agreed Dr. Davis... wish all would "Read and Heed" this advice.

    Question: you are referring to Type 2 Diabetes only, right?

    All the best.

    Steve

  • Jonathan

    2/8/2011 3:53:13 PM |

    Most drug stores including Walmart and Target carry a small disposable meter that looks like a 35mm film bottle.  Very cheap and includes 50 test strips.  Next cheapest I've found is the Walmart ReliOn Ultima meter which is around $9 and you buy the strips at the Pharmacy (only since people steal them) for around $39 for 100.  When I first started Primal, my sugar readings were all over the place and then within 3-4 months of eating low-carb my reading became really stable all day long.  I think I had to burn through my over abundant glycogen stores first (it was mostly causing high waking pre-breakfast readings).

  • Desia

    2/8/2011 4:39:06 PM |

    I'm going to try this with the BG meter we use for our diabetic cat. It measures in mmol/L and the recommended BG targets are 4.0-7.0 before meals/5.0-10.0 2hrs. after. (for humans)
    Is this similar to your recommendation of100 mg/d,l Dr Davis?

  • Anonymous

    2/8/2011 4:41:35 PM |

    Can it cure type I diabetes as well?

  • Steve Cooksey

    2/8/2011 5:04:04 PM |

    I am a diabetic and I find the inexpensive Wallmart brand ReliOn Micro is a great value.

    @ $20 for meter and strips. Refill strips @ $12 per 20.

  • Anonymous

    2/8/2011 5:22:48 PM |

    Just a "heads up" for others.  I ordered the Walmart Relion BG meter ($9) and a supply of strips and lancets online only to have Walmart CANCEL the BG meter (no reason available) and send me the strips and lancets (which I will have to return as they are useless to me without the Relion BG meter).  Walmart's website still says the BG meters are "in stock" when clearly they are not and customer service had no explanation for that either.

    I'll visit your earlier post to find a comparable meter.

  • Jeff

    2/8/2011 5:41:44 PM |

    Dr. Davis: "This is why low-glycemic index is an absurd notion."

    Does this mean the Dreamfields pasta claim of being low-carb is misleading, at best?

    I've been contemplating trying it, but fear it really isn't low carb.

  • Jack

    2/8/2011 5:48:20 PM |

    i am curious about the effect that the oatmeal that i sometimes eat would have on my blood glucose levels.

    i take 3 cups of raw oats, soak them in warm water with 8 tablespoons of raw whey and add 2 heaping tablespoons of organic buckwheat flour and let them soak for 24 hours. drain and rinse thoroughly. pour the oats into a baking casserole dish and add some coconut oil, blueberries, pure vanilla, cinnamon, buttermilk. bake at 350 for 40 minutes.

    the result is a very delicious and highly altered form of oats. the whey and buckwheat drastically reduce the phytic acid and 'ferment' or predigest the oats. when it's done, i just add a couple spoons of pasture butter and enjoy. i've noticed a significant change in texture as a result. the oats are no longer firm. they feel quite 'broken down' and they do not sit in my stomach like a brick.

    why go through all that trouble? well... you should taste it. it is quite the treat.

  • ~Amy Jo~

    2/8/2011 5:55:34 PM |

    I appreciate the information in your blog.  I started checking my blood sugar and was shocked at the results of some 'low glycemic index' foods.  Besides the basic health benefits of maintaining healthy blood glucose, I've also lost a few pounds.  Bonus!

  • Anne

    2/8/2011 6:02:39 PM |

    Desia,

    I'm diabetic and from the UK where we measure blood glucose in mmol/L - to convert from mg/dl to mmol/L just divide by 18 - so 100 is 5.5. Multiply by 18 to convert your mmol/L to mg/dl.

  • revelo

    2/8/2011 6:06:01 PM |

    Oatmeal and other high-carb foods won't cause blood sugar spikes if you are lean, get regular exercise,  eat high-carb foods on a regular basis, and don't have health problems. All 4 of the above conditions must be met. In particular, you MUST exercise, though the exerciser doesn't have to be lengthy.

    I find keeping my bodyfat under 15% (I'm a 50 year-old male, women would have a higher percentage) and doing 5 to 10 minutes of one-legged squats, which gets my blood pumping and is much more convenient than running, is enough to keep my insulin sensitivity high enough to avoid blood sugar surges.

    Yesterday, for example, I had a single large meal in the late afternoon, due to being too busy to eat most of the day: a half can of salmon, a large salad, 300g (dry) of cooked oats mixed with about 6 grams of cinnamon all eaten within about 30 minutes. My blood sugar never exceeded 110 mg/dL during the subsequent 3 hours (I measured every 30 minutes) and eventually fell back to the normal level of about 85.

    When I experimented with a paleo diet for a while, my insulin sensitivity plummeted, so that when I broke the paleo regime temporarily and ate a mere 100g (dry) of cooked oats, my blood sugar skyrocketed to 195 mg/dL 30 minutes later. And note that those oats were eaten together with 2 eggs and some veggies, which would normally tend to mute the glycemic index as opposed to eating oats by themselves. Evidently, what happened while eating paleo is that my body's cells had down-regulated their insulin sensitivity. This makes sense, since there is no need for high insulin sensitivity when eating paleo, and the greater danger under these conditions is low blood sugar rather than high blood sugar. Only when glucose is abundant (regularly eating a high carb diet) does the body upregulate insulin sensitivity. But the upregulation won't occur if the body is fat or doesn't get regular exercise. And, of course, it obviously won't occur for someone with a "burned out" pancreas, such as Type II diabetics supposedly have.

  • Desia

    2/8/2011 7:43:01 PM |

    Anne, thanks for the info. (I'm from Canada)

  • AndreAnna

    2/8/2011 7:56:23 PM |

    Has there been any studies citing any differences in regular oats versus soaking/sprouted oats? I wonder if the neutralizing of the phytic acid that helps in digestions would also help the way the body breaks down the oats and, therefore, insulin response.

  • Brent

    2/8/2011 9:36:23 PM |

    Jeff -

    I have used Dreamfields for about 6 months now.  They claim the carbs are "locked up" and can't be digested.  I have found they do not affect blood glucose like regular pasta would.

    However they are still wheat, which has it's own problems even if the special processing prevents blood glucose spikes. I still have it once or twice a month when the rest of my "non-low carb" family has pasta, but I know I have to quit wheat all together soon, just hard to do. For now it's the lesser of two evils.

  • donny

    2/9/2011 1:34:07 AM |

    "Oatmeal and other high-carb foods won't cause blood sugar spikes if you are lean, get regular exercise, eat high-carb foods on a regular basis, and don't have health problems."

    Absolutely. But this is a blog about reversing heart disease...

  • Gretchen

    2/9/2011 2:02:45 AM |

    It's dangerous to talk about "curing" diabetes with a low-carb diet. Someone with type 2 who goes on a LC diet may be able to maintain normal blood sugar levels as long as s/he stays on the diet. But the diabetes is not cured. Returning to a standard American diet would result in high blood sugar again.

    A diabetes cure would mean you could eat cereal, skim milk, orange juice, toast, and jam and keep your blood sugar levels normal.

    The danger of telling someone he/she is cured is that the person will believe it, will return to a regular diet, and will stop testing, not realizing how high blood sugars are and will end up in a worse situation than he/she started with.

  • Galina L.

    2/9/2011 2:49:37 AM |

    That is it! I am buying a glucosameter! I sometimes get a little bit lethargic from any big meal, if I simple add cabbage soup to my usual stake + sauerkraut lunch.

    To Gretchen:
    It is very dangerous to be so stupid(or reluctant to think) as the individual you just described.

  • Anonymous

    2/9/2011 3:36:25 AM |

    I enjoy this blog, but I do frequently agree with those who say that the grandiose effects of eating grains that you present are often times found more common place in people with metabolic problems. For example, while I was in college, I had a dorm mate who read some random article about gluten and suddenly believed herself to be suffering from Celiac Disease. My friends and I labeled her an hypochondriac, going so far as feeding her a deadly, lethal oatmeal cookie (gasp!) which we passed off as consisting of "a grain-like substance produced from the dried roots of a Japanese plant." My dorm mate ate the cookie and low and behold - nothing. Weeks prior she claimed to have taken a few bites of Frosted Mini Wheats in the cafeteria and subsequently suffered a debilitating pain in her stomach. Moral of the story is that her fear of gluten and the pain she felt from consuming Frosted Mini Wheats were purely psychosomatic.

    I guess what I'm at getting at is you provide good information, but often times the entries you write are reminiscent of the blogs/journals/prose/essays written by individuals such as the Unibomber. In a half-serious, half-jocular manner, I always feel like one day I'll read/hear in the news, "Man opens [gun] fire within an oatmeal factory," and [to no one's surprise] it'll be you. I'm not accusing you of actually perpetuating such an act, but you write with such vigor about something like wheat/grains, and it gives off the "vibe" that you are harboring some hardcore resentment.

    Once again, I enjoy your overall blog, but your hasty generalizations and confusing cause-and-effect can be misleading and overly exaggerated.

  • Dr. William Davis

    2/9/2011 3:40:26 AM |

    Hi, Steve--

    Actually, the same advice applies to all forms of diabetes. Type 1 and "intermediate" types, i.e., slender people with diabetes, LADA, etc., can still follow a similar program with equally extravagant results.

    However, the blood sugar tightrope is much more difficult to walk for these people and should be undertaken with the assistance of the (sadly, rare) assistance of a knowledgeable expert in doing so.

  • Dr. William Davis

    2/9/2011 3:45:38 AM |

    Hi, Amy Jo--

    Ahh. Your comment alone made writing this post worth it. Thank you.

    There is an odd sentiment that sometimes prevails: If it doesn't apply to me, it must not be true. As if everyone wore a size 13 shoe.

  • Anonymous

    2/9/2011 4:42:37 AM |

    How about oatmeal (steel cut)if:
    15 min blood sugar 127
    30 min blood sugar 150s
    45 min blood sugar 125
    60 min blood sugar back to 95?

  • Anonymous

    2/9/2011 5:45:11 AM |

    As much as this wheat-free idea kills me, I'm going to try to at least quit my sweetened cereal habit each morning. My fasting sugar is good - 81, but my triglycerides are still monstrous at 292 even with niacin and fish oil. On a semi-related matter, I confirmed for myself that dry Vitamin D doesn't work. I've been using Life Extension brand cholecalciferol 5,000 units a day for months, and my levels barely rose - from 33 to 36. Got a shipment of the carlson oil caps and I'm going to try 8,000 and see where that leads.

  • Anonymous

    2/9/2011 9:05:42 AM |

    Hi,
    Thank you for this great post!  
    I was diagnosed borderline diabetic, glucose intolerant/insulin resistant over 10 years ago. I figured out that a glucose meter could really help improve my health so I used it faithfully for many years. Now the strips are very expensive so I have cut back. But I learned an incredible amount while  using the glucometer.
    This is a fabulous method, and I highly recommend it.

  • Peter

    2/9/2011 12:24:20 PM |

    My friend started feeding his diabetic cat low carb chow, and the cat went into shock when she got her insulin shot.
    The vet said her blood sugar had returned to normal, should no longer get insulin.

  • Anonymous

    2/9/2011 4:18:10 PM |

    Thanks Dr. Davis.  I have been following your advice to use the meter to lose weight and I find it really works!  I am finding the food that sends my blood sugar high and I am trying to avoid them.  
    Char

  • notrace

    2/9/2011 6:30:24 PM |

    Here's a way of using the glucose meter that I came across just this week: don't eat unless blood glucose has dropped to a normal level even if it means eating once a day.

    http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    2/9/2011 8:07:30 PM |

    Heart effect of Doc's recommendation is very important if you are not young. Human ageing is accompanied by histological (molecular and cellular) changes in the vascular smooth muscle cells of the artery wall. It means that over time formation of atheroscleroma (plaque) becomes easier to develop - even if it has not done so, yet.

    Technically the molecules that are big players in the pro-inflammatory cycle are MCP-1 (monocyte chemo-attractant protein 1), MMP-2 (matrix metallo-proteinase type-II) and TGF-B1 (transforming growth factor beta-1). With age these are found circulating in elevated amounts; even in individuals without clinical problems. In other words genetic expression of them is upregulated, and it appears that age induces this epigenetic activation even if there is no diagnosable pathology.

    Now, Doc's clinical instruction is to hold down the small LDL production and reign in circulating triglycerides. This is because those are what will provide the fodder for the pro-inflammatory molecules' loop of interaction to actually go on to "make" actual plaque.

    Blood sugar spikes, according to Doc, are apparently the stalking horse for setting up our aged vascular system for pathological problems. We are accustomed to think of blood sugar as only a diabetics dilema; and so, many non-diabetics mistake Doc's insistance as not applicable to them.

    And, to those readers who have their own method of carbohydrate consumption it would be instructive to learn if any have tested, and might share, your small LDL percentage (mine is unsatisfactory to me, based on Doc's recommended %). This can add some perspective to see if this blog's "glucomania" is somewhat overblown.

  • Anonymous

    2/9/2011 8:34:29 PM |

    Ebay is also a good source of meters and test strips.  Some out of date, but less important for non diabetic purposes.

  • revelo

    2/9/2011 8:34:41 PM |

    donny wrote: "But this is a blog about reversing heart disease..."

    It's for Dr. Davis and not me to say what this blog is about, but my impression is that the goal is not just reversing but also preventing heart disease in the first place (and also the other ailments mentioned in the current post).

    Many of the people on the blog are healthy and want to stay that way, as opposed to being sick and wanting to be cured. I think I am in the first category myself, though I'm still awaiting the results of blood tests to know for sure. Already, I have made the following changes in my life due to reading this blog:

    1) taking 2000 IU/day of vitamin D3 in gel capsule.
    2) vitamin D blood test after a few months of the D3 supplement regime.
    3) using the glucose monitor to learn about my response to carbs.
    4) getting a VAP test to learn if I have Lp(a) and also get my VLDL numbers.
    5) Hb1Ac test.

    I am quite grateful for Dr Davis for pushing me to making these changes, but I think the anti-grain/anti-oatmeal focus is misguided.

    There is an epidemic of obsesity and type II diabetes in Pacific Islanders who eat junk food nowadays, but who were formerly lean on their traditional paleo low-carb diet of fish and coconuts. So why don't they go back to the fish and coconuts? BECAUSE CARBS ARE TASTY AND LOW-CARB DIETS ARE BORING. And there you have the argument against the paleo low-carb diet in a nutshell. The evidence is clear: Atkins works in the short run, but not the long run (at least for most people) because we naturally crave carbs. Sure, if you have willpower, you can hold off a year or so, but eventually you'll fall off the wagon. And when you do, you'll go ape over those carbs, because you haven't learned how to manage them. Whereas if your normal diet is high-wholegrain-carb (after using Atkins for losing weight in a hurry), then there is much less danger of losing control of yourself when you eat some sugar in addition to your usual wholegrains.

    High-carb diets are tricky to manage, because there is nothing to stop you from overeating, unlike with Atkins, where the body tends to resist overeating. But tricky is not the same as impossible. Part of the trick, in my experience, involves eating lots of wholegrains or tubers: wheat, rice, oats, corn, potatoes, etc. (Another part involves staying lean, and by lean, I mean ribs showign for men, as is a little strenuous exercise each day.) And that is why I keep arguing against this blanket indictment by Dr Davis against grains, and especially against oatmeal, which is the most health-inducing of the common grains for many people.

  • revelo

    2/9/2011 8:49:22 PM |

    @Might-o'chondri-AL: The chemistry panel I got back in December shows the following:

    Total chol: 152
    HDL       :  70
    Trig      :  39
    VLDL calc :   8
    LDL calc  :  74

    The two LDL scores are calculated, not measured. I just got back this very morning from getting blood drawn for a VAP test (ordered through lef.org), so I'll know my tested, as opposed to calculated, VLDL numbers in a week or so.

  • revelo

    2/9/2011 9:31:41 PM |

    @Might-o'chondri-AL:
    The chemistry panel I had back in December showed:

    Total chol: 152
    Trig      : 39
    HDL chol  : 70
    VLDL calc : 8
    LDL calc  : 74

    Just this morning, I had blood drawn for a VAP test (ordered through lef.org), so when the results come back, I'll know the measured VLDL percentage numbers, as opposed to the calculated values from the chemistry panel. (I'll also learn if I have Lp(a)).

    My diet back in December was similar to now: 200g to 400g (dry) per day of rolled oats, 1/3 to 1/2 can salmon, salad, sometimes low-fat cottage cheese or eggs instead of salmon, plus small quantities of "forbidden foods" that I'm allowed to eat on the way home from the grocery but am not allowed to keep in my apartment: chocolate, nuts, fruit.

    I should note that I spent October and November hiking the Appalachian trail, and so was in extremely good cardiovascular condition, and also quite lean, but I was feeling damaged internally from the constant alternation of famine and feast. The feasts typically involved a gallon of ice cream, a package or two cookies, plus anything else that struck my fancy. These feasts during town stops were to avoid losing too much body fat, since it was getting cold as November progressed and I needed to retain some body fat to stay warm. It was because of that feeling of being internally damaged that I began researching health on the internet and came across this blog.

    (I posted this comment before and it got deleted somehow.)

  • free diabetic meters

    2/9/2011 9:39:52 PM |

    Fascinating! This is such a great idea! Thanks!

  • Dr. William Davis

    2/10/2011 2:24:03 AM |

    Hi, Revelo--

    Great comments.

    However, it helps to keep one thing in mind: The reduction or elimination of grains is not just about weight control (though it certainly does help that); it's about reduction of small LDL, triglycerides, other inflammatory phenomena, blood pressure, visceral fat, and glycation.

    Wheat and oats increase blood sugar, small LDL, triglycerides, etc. to extravagant degrees.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    2/10/2011 2:35:45 AM |

    @Revelo,
    Very good reading lipid panel profile; can see why you speak up against "glucophobia".

  • B

    2/10/2011 1:45:19 PM |

    @revelo: Hey, this is the only lipid panel I have ever seen anyone post that's close to my last one! At the time, I was eating 200-300g of carbs per day, mostly from grains. Of course I am only in my mid-20s now, but it's worth noting that this kind of lipid profile is typical for my extended family and we have absolutely no history diabetes or heart disease despite most of us being over. Bodies can handle carbohydrate so, so differently.

    Like you I am lean and need to put effort into gaining body fat, but I wasn't very active when I was eating high carb, lots of grains (and plenty of junky food too as I was trying to put on weight), and it made me ill in various ways.  

    I do feel my best with starch in my diet, but stick to potatoes, other tubers/root veg, and white rice - and not too much, I have always had issues with blood sugar 'crashes' although I haven't tested with a blood glucose meter to see just what's going on there. I feel awful an hour or two after eating too many carbs (and more ill after eating smaller amounts of oats, whear).

  • Anonymous

    2/10/2011 4:46:38 PM |

    I have a question as a breakfast cereal junkie trying to kick the wheat and sugar habit: would something like rice crispies be significantly better? No wheat as far as I can tell, but there is some fructose and some malted barley involved...

  • Anonymous

    2/11/2011 1:13:36 AM |

    For those interested in blood glucose I recommend the presentation 'What is Normal Glucose? – Continuous Glucose Monitoring Data from Healthy Subjects' by Professor Christiansen.

    He uses a continuous blood glucose monitoring for 30 or so patients over a 5 day trial.  Days 2-3 set meal in clinic and days 4-5 free meals at set times.

    This should give you an idea of  the expected daily ranges are for healthy subjects.

    He then does an additional study on breakfast and comes to the conclusion that perhaps the fast adsorbing breakfasts we've be told to eat arn't that good for us.  Ref this blog post on oatmeal vs omelet.

    Finally he looks at mortality vs blood-glucose levels.

    http://www.diabetes-symposium.org/index.php?menu=view&source=&sourceid=0&chart=1&id=322

    Enjoy.

  • Anonymous

    2/11/2011 1:34:34 AM |

    Here is another presentation that y'all may find interesting as part of the 'cut grains out' argument is vLDL production that is the bad cholesterol.  I'm no biochemist but this presentation on Sugar focusing on Fructose and how it treated by the liver may interest.

    Other carbs though seem to get converted to Glucose and only a tiny amount to vLDL / triglycerides.

    The huge vLDL / Triglycerides production comes from fructose.  I limit my fructose to less than 10g/day.

    'Sugar: The Bitter Truth'

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

    Enjoy.

  • Tom

    2/11/2011 3:21:39 AM |

    I recently bought a ReliOn micro glucometer from Walmart after reading your recommendations, Dr. Davis. I'm 31, in excellent health, eat low-grain/starch most of the time, frequent anaerobic and aerobic exercise. My fasting glucose seems to rest in the 70-90 range.

    Recently I decided to measure my glucose response after eating oatmeal. I used organic instant rolled oats and soaked them > 1 day in water with salt and lime juice, WAPF-style. I made a huge bowl of oatmeal (about 20 fluid ounces) and added blueberries and an appropriately huge amount of butter before eating. One hour later I measured my blood glucose using 2 separate test strips. I got 79 and 78. This surprised me, and I thought I'd add my data point to the discussion here.

    No doubt a high fat load slowss gastric emptying and helps minimize the spike in blood glucose. Perhaps my reading would have been higher 2 hours after the meal.

  • Anonymous

    2/11/2011 2:20:27 PM |

    What about 1 carb whey protein isolate with unsweetened almond milk?  Why does it raise blood glucose?

  • Anonymous

    2/12/2011 4:56:41 AM |

    http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/007893.html

    Fructose Alters Brain Metabolism
    One of the competing theories to explain the obesity epidemic is a rise in fructose consumption causing alterations in hormone levels that increase appetite. UCSF med school prof Robert Lustig has a pretty good rant-lecture on the evils of fructose. Well, here's another study on part of the mechanism in the brain of how fructose might be causing increased obesity.

    PORTLAND, Ore. – The dietary concerns of too much fructose is well documented. High-fructose corn syrup has become the sweetener most commonly added to processed foods. Many dietary experts believe this increase directly correlates to the nation's growing obesity epidemic. Now, new research at Oregon Health & Science University demonstrates that the brain – which serves as a master control for body weight – reacts differently to fructose compared with another common sweetener, glucose. The research is published in the online edition of the journal Diabetes, Obesity and Metabolism and will appear in the March print edition.

    In humans the cortical brain control areas of the brain were inhibited by the influx of fructose.

    Functional MRI allows researchers to watch brain activity in real time. To conduct the research, nine normal-weight human study subjects were imaged as they received an infusion of fructose, glucose or a saline solution. When the resulting brain scans from these three groups were compared, the scientists observed distinct differences.

    Brain activity in the hypothalamus, one brain area involved in regulating food intake, was not affected by either fructose or glucose. However, activity in the cortical brain control areas showed the opposite response during infusions of the sugars. Activity in these areas was inhibited when fructose was given but activated during glucose infusion.

    This is an important finding because these control brain areas included sites that are thought to be important in determining how we respond to food taste, smells, and pictures, which the American public is bombarded with daily.

    The result increases the plausibility of fructose as a causal agent.

    "This study provides evidence in humans that fructose and glucose elicits opposite responses in the brain. It supports the animal research that shows similar findings and links fructose with obesity," added Purnell.

    If you want to reduce your weight also consider other theories for the cause of obesity including grains as a possible major cause.

    By Randall Parker 2011 February 09 05:42 PM  Brain Appetite

  • Anonymous

    2/15/2011 12:45:07 AM |

    Oats are often cross contaminated with wheat.  Would certified gluten free oats give the same results?

  • semsons.group

    2/21/2011 4:04:55 PM |

    I think this post is really very important. Looking forward to future extensions of it.

      I've been able to control my cholesterol cutting wheat to zero, a moderate version of paleo diet, and a little of supplements with DHA/EPA, as suggested by Dr. Davis. Now is the turn of glucose Wink

      After reading this post I bought a glucometer (Bayer USB device) and I'm slowly learning some important things. My fasting glucose is good, about 80, however I've just seen (measured) that a simple dish of rice with fried egg rises my glucose one hour after lunch to  170!. My wife experienced a similar change. Amazing. I have lunch at work, and these measures of glucose are going to be very helpful to help me decide what to choose for the menu. I plan to continue measuring my glucose for the next weeks, so I guess news surprise will come.

    I just want to thank Dr. Davis for the great help  he's providing to many people from his blog.

      Best.

  • Anonymous

    2/26/2011 7:01:06 PM |

    Hi,

    I have bought a glucometer and wnted to ask you a question.
    This morning my bg was 4.9 (fasting) so very good then I ate pork then I had cashews and at 5pm I felt shakey not right, hungry so I checked it and it was 4.3 (isnt it a bit low?) so I had a pear and an hour after the pear it was 6.1, is it normal? does it mean i should avoid fruits?

    thanks for your help!

  • Anonymous

    3/31/2011 2:36:10 PM |

    I know I'm late to this party, but I took your advice and got a free glucose meter from Walgreens (came with 10 strips). Fasting blood sugar 75, ate a giant meal of steak, eggs, bacon, sausage, and sliced tomatoes, it went up to 85. On seperate days, a plain protein shake with a tad of reds powder spiked it to 112 (!!!) and my "low-carb" meat chili (no beans, just meat) launched it to 102 (lots of tomato paste/sauce). Needless to say, it's been an eye opener, especially since so-called "healthy" foods are raising my blood sugar more than I'd like, and of course stopping fat loss in it's tracks.

  • Duncan

    5/5/2011 8:21:07 AM |

    Hi,

    Am late to this party too but had a question.

    I too bought a blood glucose monitor and, following almost exactly the info above, I've been tracking my numbers for a few days now. And I have a few questions I was hoping someone could help me with...

    A few facts first:

    Age - 45
    Male
    Do Crossfit 3-4 times per week

    So far my BG levels have not gone over 108 and are averaging around 91/92, fasting BS is around 86.

    The 108 number came 1 hour after a breakfast of uncooked oatmeal, some apple sauce. milk and a handful of almonds - all blended. BUT last night I ate a green salad, chicken and vegetables, with a piece of thin pie crust (!) and 2 lattes (!!) that only gave me a BS  number of 85 after 1 hour and 83 after 3 hours.

    Do these numbers sound right? And how 'bad' is a BS level of 108?

    Hoping someone can advise...

    Duncan

  • Fred

    7/25/2011 5:36:21 AM |

    Insulin is meaningless. All the answers are on this site - http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/. Thank you and have a blessed day.

  • tam

    7/25/2011 7:52:13 PM |

    I've been testing stuff after 20 minutes.  The highest things were: whole wheat bread, whole wheat cereal, potatoes, and whole oranges.  But so far I've only had the 'low carb flu' or 'reactive hypoglycemia', and I've actually gained some weight.  But I think I'm on the right track.

  • LS

    10/4/2011 1:46:16 PM |

    Dr. Davis,
    If a person has a high fasting number, is the goal to stay at the original number?  I have a fasting glucose number of 83-85, so should my ideal number one hour or so post meal be close to or identical to the start or just below 100?  I'm a little confused.

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/5/2011 1:43:44 AM |

    At this low a starting value, just staying below 100 mg/dl is a great goal.

    The "no higher" advice was meant for people who start at 100 mg/dl or higher blood sugar.

  • jpatti

    5/29/2012 3:11:45 AM |

    Those who can keep tight control of bg with diet are not "cured" of diabetes anymore than those who avoid peanuts are "cured" of peanut allergies.

    Minimizing carb content keeps bg lower, yes, and many diabetics can control bg with just that.  Others need meds regardless of how clean their diets are.  

    Managing the disease is NOT curing it.  Unless they can pass a GTT, they're still diabetic.

Loading
When MIGHT statins be helpful?

When MIGHT statins be helpful?

I spend a lot of my day bashing statin drugs and helping people get rid of them.

But are there instances in which statin drugs do indeed provide real advantage? If someone follows the diet I've articulated in these posts and in the Track Your Plaque program, supplements omega-3 fatty acids and vitamin D, normalizes thyroid measures, and identifies and corrects hidden genetic sources of cardiovascular risk (e.g., Lp(a)), then are there any people who obtain incremental benefit from use of a statin drug?

I believe there are some groups of people who do indeed do better with statin drugs. These include:

Apoprotein E4 homozygotes

Apoprotein E2 homozygotes

Familial combined hyperlipidemia (apoprotein B overproduction and/or defective degradation)

Cholesteryl ester transfer protein homozygotes (though occasionally manageable strictly with diet)

Familial heterozygous hypercholesterolemia, familial homozygous hypercholesterolemia

Other rare variants, e.g., apo B and C variants

The vast majority of people now taking statin drugs do NOT have the above genetic diagnoses. The majority either have increased LDL from the absurd "cut your fat, eat more healthy whole grains" diet that introduces grotesque distortions into metabolism (like skyrocketing apo B/VLDL and small LDL particles) or have misleading calculated LDL cholesterol values (since conventional LDL is calculated, not measured).

As time passes, we are witnessing more and more people slow, stop, or reverse coronary plaque using no statin drugs.

Like antibiotics and other drugs, there may be an appropriate time and situation in which they are helpful, but not for every sneeze, runny nose, or chill. Same with statin drugs: There may be an occasional person who, for genetically-determined reasons, is unable to, for example, clear postprandial (after-eating) lipoproteins from the bloodstream and thereby develops coronary atherosclerotic plaque and heart attack at age 40. But these people are the exception.

Comments (17) -

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    4/8/2011 12:21:11 AM |

    I don't know how individuals with mis-sense SNP for gluco-kinase regulatory protein (ex: GCKR rs780094) fit into the pattern. They get more liver steatosis (fat build up) with attendant elevated LDL and triglycerides, despite less fasting glucose and less fasting insulin numbers; while their 2 hour blood glucose runs high (GCK gene is very determinate of 2 hour glucose levels), showing down-regulation of the homeostatic model for Beta cell function (HOMA-B).

    Normally GCKR regulates triglycerides and determines persons glycemic traits by governing how glucose is stored and how it is dispersed. GCKR also geneticly regulates the availablility of substrate used for de-novo lipo-genesis.

    Gene SNP of protein phosphatase 1regulatory (inhibitor) subunit 3 B (PP1R3B rs4240624) manifests increased liver steatosis  and both elevated LDL and elevated HDL; with low fasting glucose. PPP1R3B codes for controling protein and modulates the break down of glycogen (storage glucose moleccule).

    Together PPP1R3B and GCKR are integral to blood sugar dynamics and the levels of lipids in circulation.

    If Doc's regimen counter-balances individual missense genetic workings, like those above, then that is impressive corrrection achieved through intervention . I presume for people with liver steatosis missense mutations (ie:  SNPs like above) elevated LDL treatment using statins would be bad for their liver.

  • Dr. John

    4/8/2011 1:10:14 AM |

    Statins might be helpful if you have bacterial pneumonia:
    http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1907.extract?sid=f762e55c-1a0b-4ef3-81c4-f31cc472a372

    That's because the rapidly growing pneumococcal bacteria are very susceptible to HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors (statins). The bacteria have similar cholesterol compounds (hopanoids) in their membranes, essential for their membrane function. With the statins blocking the hopanoids, they die....very quickly.

    All bacteria have a mevalonate pathway.  The HMG-CoA reductase enzyme is inhibited in bacteria and are VERY toxic to bacteria. So thus, you have a "statin-benefit" because it kills the bacteria, before it kills or injures the patient.

    Statins can essentially inhibit biological life forms.
    Dr. John

  • Dr. William Davis

    4/8/2011 1:11:01 AM |

    HI, Might--

    As usual, you've come out of left field with a totally unexpected issue!

    I'm not sure how this genetic variant fits into this argument. It is, to my knowledge, a very rare diagnosis.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    4/8/2011 6:40:15 PM |

    I don't envy Doc trying to sort out who needs what treatment. Genetic high cholesterol entails over 50 amino acid variations out the jumble of 692 amino acids assembled into relevant complexes.

    Pro-protein convertase subtilisin/kexin-9 (PCSK9)is involved in familiar hyper-cholestemia. Those who make too much PCSK9 (in the liver and small intestine) rapidly degrade their cholesterol receptors and can't pluck much LDL out of circulation; plasma cholesterol rises.

    Should one's genetics foster making too little PCSK9, then cholesterol receptors don't degrade. This promptly shunts cholesterol into the liver lysosome (an organelle inside a cell)for break down; thus they  measure low cholesterol in the blood.

    I speculate Doc's diet, in "normal" genetic people up-regulates cholesterol reception. Which means his program has the epigenetic effect (from diet dynamics) on "normal" liver/small intestine genes in a way that less PCSK9 is expressed

    The caucasian anglo-saxon PCSK9 D374Y mutation causes 4 times the normal cholesterol in patients. Their risk factor for pre-mature death is 10 years earlier than even more benign PCSK9 mutations; so Detective Doc Davis is willing to prescribe statins for people like them.

  • Anonymous

    4/9/2011 2:59:55 AM |

    I might be one of these poor souls.

    Eating a strict diet, one Dr Davis would be very proud of... I'm lean as can be, feel great, but my cholesterol shot through roof (while HDL dropped).    

    Frown

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    4/9/2011 4:53:48 AM |

    Hi Annon.,
    Internet self-diagnosing shouldn't replace a good medical consultant. My comments are not qualified medical assesments; am a layman.  

    My favorite cousin has had her cholesterol testing well over 300for several decades, and is now in her late 70s. Like Doc chided me earlier, there are "genetic variant" being "very rare diagnosis."

  • Lucy

    4/9/2011 11:47:29 AM |

    What do you think about KIF6?   I was tested and found to be a non-carrier, and I was subsequently told that statins would likely not benefit me as much as diet/lifestyle changes (I'm ApoE 3/4 as well).  Does that also mean that niacin would not help?

  • Anonymous

    4/9/2011 12:52:56 PM |

    To say the least, I am very disappointed in Dr. Davis' stance regarding ApoE 4 & statins. There is abundant evidence suggesting statins are counterproductive to brain health, which is much more pronounced in Apo E4's who are already at high risk for alzheimers disease. It isn't only about lipids, there is a larger picture to consider. The brain requires cholesterol.  Also, high cholesterol levels are associated with longevity in the elderly.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    4/9/2011 7:44:42 PM |

    Alzheimers and the relationship of ApoE4 is different than other ApoE isoforms (like ApoE 2 & 3). In normal people ApoE is integral to clearing amyloid Beta from the brain; it forms a conjugate (ApoE/AmyloidB)that is moved out across the brain blood barrier by LRP-1 (lipo-protein related protein 1).

    ApoE4 is acted upon (cleaved) in brain neurons, yielding rump fragments with unique Carbon- terminals; and,  ApoE4 degrades easier than ApoE 2 &/or 3. These ApoE4 fragments, when in a brain cell's cytosol, influence that cell's mitochondria hydro-phobic pattern of lipid binding.

    The ApoE4 fragment properties  do 2 unwanted things to the brain cell mitochondria. It decreases the mitochondria ability to perform tasks involved in glycolysis (glucose energy). And is antagonistic to PPAR gamma; PPAR gamma is what would otherwise promote adequate mitochondria bio-genesis.

    ALzheimer lesions show higher amounts when measured in individuals with concurrent Type II diabetes and the ApoE4 isoform. The ratio of insulin in the cerebro-spinal fluid to the amount of insulin in the blood also shows a difference depending on the specific ApoE geno-type.

    Alzheimer brains are using less glucose; patients show less receptors for insulin-like growth factor and insulin, as well as less insulin degrading enzymes. It is postulated that depending on the individual's ApoE variation there is a different amyloid Beta response to brain insulin.

    Normally one goes from glucose intolerance to hyperglycemia and then elevated insulin circulating as become diabetic. Yet experiments show that giving insulin improves diabetic neuro-pathy in the brain; it seems to be a way peripheral insulin resistance causes different tissues to respond.

    In Alzheimer experiments with supplemental insulin (nasal, etc.)administration cognitive function improved. This response was more significant in those with the ApoE4 allele (compared to other ApoE types with Alzheimers, who also improved cognition ).

    So, the Alzheimer enigma seems to involve energy format dynamics for ApoE isoforms more than specific levels of cholesterol. This is not a comment on ApoE homo-zygote genes relationship to cardio-vascular risk factors, or brain lipid metabolism.

  • homertobias

    4/11/2011 3:36:34 PM |

    Mito
    You sound like Suzanne Craft.  I like her work.

  • Medicomp INC.

    4/12/2011 4:06:52 PM |

    You make an excellent point here:

    ...eat more healthy whole grains" diet that introduces grotesque distortions into metabolism

    We are encouraged by transient sources that this is almost always the best alternative for other fattening foods, yet people never really delve deep into the cons of this transition either.  It truly does take dedication to be well-informed about the dietary changes you make in your lifestyle.

  • Anne

    9/18/2011 5:58:38 PM |

    I had a body scan a few years ago, and my plaque count was 1050, when they told me that 150 was considered high, I thought  I would implode at any moment, I went to a lot of different cardiologists and had all kinds of tests and they said to exercise and not  worry about the plaque. One Dr. put me on lipitor and 3 days later I could hardly walk from the muscle pain, he told me to stop taking it and I tried niacin and red rice with the same results. I don't know how to reduce the plaque, the Dr's all said it was hereditary . I am open to any advice.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 12:43:37 PM |

    Hi, Anne--

    Note that this is the blog that accompanies the Track Your Plaque program that focuses on just this issue. It means 1) identify all causes of plaque, then 2) correct them, preferably using natural means.

  • JK

    10/30/2011 4:52:34 PM |

    Dr. Davis,
    I don't know if you have already addressed this topic in prior posts but allow me to suggest that in lieu of consuming statin drugs, even for the aforementioned outliers, it is possible to achieve reduced LDL cholesterol and increased HDL cholesterol by supplementing with magnesium.
    (All the ensuing statements below I humbly attribute to Mildred S. Seelig and Andrea Rosanoff, "The Magnesium Factor," pages 139-147.)
    1. Statins (Lipitor, Zocor, Baycol, Mevacor, etc.) are designed to lower cholesterol by inhibiting HMG-CoA reductase, which is the enzyme responsible for the synthesis of cholesterol.
    2. These drugs when studied, not only lower cholesterol, but also reduce total mortality, cardiac mortality, the total incidence of heart attacks, angina, and other non-fatal cardiac events. (p.140.)
    3. They also made the blood platelets less sticky, they slowed the progression of plaques and stabilized them, and they reduced inflammation in the blood vessel tissue. (ibid.)
    All these results, and more, Seelig further informs the reader, are a result of reduced mevalonate in the cells, which is the direct result of an inhibited HMG-CoA reductase, which is the enzyme that statins are designed to inhibit.
    Now stay with me for a second because here is where it gets interesting.
    4. Magnesium is a natural inhibitor of HMG-CoA reductase. Here magnesium and statins are comparable (p. 141.)
    5. Magnesium also acts on two enzymes, phosphatase reductase and phosphohydrolase which reactivate HMG-CoA reductase. By its effects on these enzymes, which contrast one another, magnesium can either stop cholesterol formation or allow it to continue depending on the body's needs.
    6. Magnesium also activates another enzyme, lecithin cholesterol acyltransferase (LCAT) which, through this action, converts LDL cholesterol to HDL cholesterol -- increasing HDL and reducing LDL.  (Statins cannot do this.)
    In the interest of brevity, I'll conclude by saying that whereas statins are known to reduce cholesterol and perhaps achieve other cardiovascular benefits, this is due in large part to their suppression of mevalonate, brought about by their inhibition of HMG-CoA reductase.
    In contrast, magnesium not only inhibits HMG-CoA reductase, meaning that it would achieve the same results as statins in "1, 2, and 3 above," but it also converts LDL cholesterol to HDL cholesterol, achieved by its activation of LCAT, which is something that statins do less consistently.
    Further, instead of poisoning HMG-CoA reductase as statins do, magnesium inhibits it in ways that can be reactivated by other (magnesium dependent) enzymes so that the body can naturally make the mevalonate and cholesterol it needs.
    This is important because vitamin D is synthesized from cholesterol (when using the sun's rays), and cholesterol is also the precursor to testosterone, estrogen, and other steroids.
    So I encourage you to consider using Magnesium for those Apo-B cases that cannot be addressed by carbohydrate restricted diets.

  • JK

    10/30/2011 4:58:10 PM |

    Sorry, meant to say Apo-E cases.

Loading