Nice post Bill. People really need to get this info into their heads.

Great meeting you  on the cruise!

Please could you provide links to the interventional controlled (not observational) studies that have shown a link between eating meat and cancer risk, that separate the effect from eating junk food, and the fact that vegetarians are more likely to eat healthily in general than meat eaters due to the widespread and incorrect belief that saturated fat is harmful to health.

Also, could you explain lack of cancer in traditional tribal societies with a high meat intake? You would need to do this before stating that meat intake necessarily increases cancer risk.

Hi doc,

Great blog. How do you explain the Inuit, Masaai, Komi (Siberia), Native American and similar cultural groups whose diets seemed to subsist primarily on animal products? ie. including my ancestors.

Perhaps its an emphasis on wild/grass-fed/raw dairy(or as close to) animal products as opposed to the grain-fed animal products which encompass the majority of the US that you need to be addressing?

Thanks.

Interesting point of view.  Can you please provide references to support your claims?

Great diet, and yes, it seems that we should talk about healthy eating instead of weight loss or diets. Anyway the purpose of any diet is to move your eating habits to new healthy level.

Thanks for sharing and possibility to comment! Welcome to visit Ideal Weight Blog to find some recipes and great articles! Thanks!

Just on the nitrate/nitrite subject: as far as I know nitrate is a naturally occurring compound and the human exposure to it is mostly through  consumption of vegetables, and to a lesser extent water and other foods...

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/scdoc/689.htm

I would say there are 3 primary pitfalls of low-carb dieting:

1) Being too low in carbohydrates - being in ketosis is anti-metabolic and induces insulin resistance, and probably why Atkins suggested that his diet "tends to shut down the thyroid."  

2) Too much protein - this strains the thyroid as well, and encourages gluconeogenesis, which is also problematic - especially when in ketosis and insulin resistance is extreme.  

3) Extremely high in omega 6 polyunsaturated fat.  Eating a low carb diet with lots of pork fat, chicken skin, peanut butter, and nuts - the typical standbys of many low-carb dieters, provides an astronomical amount of omega 6.

By my best guesses, I was consuming 15+ grams of omega 6 while on a low-carb diet.  I've since cut that back to less than 3 grams per day and the change has been dramatic.  Of course the 400 grams of carbs per day helps too.

Dr. Davis,
Thank you for this post.  I'm certainly culpable of the "common errors" you mention.  I find that making daily decisions on what to eat difficult. I want to eat healthy and have some variety. Here's the question.  What do you eat?  What did you have for breakfast this morning?  What did you eat last night?  What do you keep in the fridge and on the counter to make following your dictates easier.
I don't want to over-think it but all this information is overwhelming.  I feel like a scientist and my body is the research subject.
Thank you for your blog.  I've learned a lot but need some direct guidance.
Sincerely,
Dana Law
San Diego, Ca

Why is "Calories in vs. calories out" a faulty concept?

Have you really read the meat leading to cancer literature carefully or do you just think it's like that? Others like Gary Taubes and Eades (who I really trust when it comes to research) have found no evidence that meat cause cancer.

On sodium nitrate, I totally agree. I get so mad when I'm walking in the grocery stores. All meat has sodium nitrate added. Grrr.

I share your thought about dairy. But do you really mean that butter triggers insulin spikes?

Most nitrite is form your own spit and originally ingested by eating vegetables.  

I believe the epidemiological studies (which also typically find fat to have bad associations...) have more to do with a lack of fruits/vegetables/polyphenols than anything that is bad about meat.  

Also, I don't think glycemic index or the insulinotropic nature of certain proteins matters one lick for people that are healthy.  I can eat a boiled potato for breakfast without my blood sugar breaking 100... I don't think diabetes is an overuse injury - more likely, it is cause by damage to the liver and then pancreas from PUFA and fructose overconsumption.  

I think Matt Stone is correct about the top three problems with Atkins.

If you're really concerned about your nitrite intake, watch your celery, arugula and spinach (and many other vegetables) consumption, too. Nitrites galore. Though it's not nitrites and nitrates in and of themselves that are linked to cancer, it's the nitrosamines that can form from them.

Sodium nitrite isn't primarily a colour fixative, it's a an anti-bacterial agent. Meats cured with sodium chloride only have to be done quite carefully to avoid botulism. Nitrite has been used since the 16th century to preserve meat. Modern cured meats also add sodium ascorbate, and ascorbates have been shown to inhibit nitrosation reactions and thus the nitroamine level in these cured meats is usually at undetecable levels.

Nitrites are produced in our mouths from bacterial reactions to the nitrates in food and water, and at least 70% of our dietary nitrite comes from this salivary nitrite (which came from our food and water). The nitrites and nitrates we then ingest are mostly either excreted fairly promptly or used to make nitric oxide. Human gastric secretions have a pH which isn't condusive to nitrosamine formation, and also include ascorbates which reduce nitrosamine formation, and keeping one's vitamin C at good levels will also have an effect. People with achlorhydria will obviously be more susceptible to nitrosamine formation. But interestingly, there are studies which now suggest that nitrite consumption is a good thing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20005970 - and branched-chain amino acids are also suggested as suppressing the effect of nitrosamines. However the amount of nitrosamines you get from smoking is definitely Not Good, and no amount of ascorbate will ameliorate it.

So, a good intake of nitrates and nitrites primarily through vegetables, some fruit, and some cured meat is good: the vegetables and fruit contain ascorbates as does your body, and most of hte meat should have it added also, minimising the formation of nitrosamines, leaving your body to get on with making use of the nitr*tes to make needed nitric oxide. (Oral nitric oxide/arginine supplements are rubbish though - the studies showing their benefit used intravenous/injected supplement.)

Personally, I'll take nitrites over botulism, thanks.

Hmmm, I've never been on a cruise, but if I did go on one, I'll bet I'd have to eat somewhat differently than I do at home, regardless of the carb count.  Between not having access to the pastured bison and wild game, raw dairy, "backyard" eggs, and organic CSA produce subscription, and so on that make up most of my family's daily diet, and no access to a kitchen, my meals on a cruise would hardly be representative of my usual diet.  

I'll bet LC cruisers are as prone to anyone when it comes to the excesses of endless supply of prepared foods on cruises, but I'm not sure we can assume that's the way they always eat.  Most people  eat somewhat differently on vacation, whether it's because they are on somewhat of a "diet vacation", or because they have to make the best of what's available.  When I was on vacation in Italy I had a gelato every day, but I certainly don't do that at home (it was a conscious decision to take a slight vacation from my diet and enjoy a local specialty for a limited time).  And I've been places where it was impossible to get eggs cooked in real butter instead of the ubiquitous "griddle grease" hydrogenated veggie oil, let alone pastured eggs and humanely produced bacon (seriously, we breakfasted at a tiny roadside diner outside Twenty-Nine Palms that had NO butter on the premises).  

And not all LC eaters are following an Atkin's diet plan, though I understand the Atkins label has become be a generic term for LC eating.  I've read an Atkins book (as well as at least a half dozen other LC diet books).  I eat LC (& GF now) but I've never followed specifically an Atkin's diet plan, nor do I describe myself as at Atkin's dieter.

I think the points you make point out that even on low carb, people can and do still rely on far too much industrial food.  It's convenient and it's everywhere (hard to avoid, esp when dining away from home).  Frankly, one of the reasons cruise vacations hold little appeal to me is the idea of having to nothing to eat all week but cr@p industrial food, no matter how talented the chefs may be at making it look and taste good.   I may be making a sweeping assumption, but somehow I don't imagine that cruise chefs are simmering their own bone broth stocks, curing charcuterie themselves, and making their own cheese (or even sourcing from small artisan vendors  very much).    I'd be extremely surprised if cruise ship food ingredients weren't offloaded from US Food tractor trailer trucks.  That's what I've seen at many land-based resorts.  When I travel,  as much as possible, I want to try the local traditional foods and specialties, prepared as authentically as possible.  That might mean eating more of something than usual (and less, too).

Isn't it also an Atkins diet error that low-carb eaters tend to be on a constant and frantic quest for processed fake food items that are pretend substitutes for the food that got them in trouble in the first place?  And many of them have made Jimmy Moore, a huge hawker of low-carb substitutes and a less-than-successful low-carber, their role model.  

I noticed on Swedish physician Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt's blog that his description of his experience on the cruise was that "[t]he big difference with Sweden is that many are fond of low-carb versions of traditional junk food, sugar, and so. Low carb cake, low carb icecream, low carb potato chips, diet sodas ... In my eyes seemed to just those participants who ate such did not have the same persuasive power of the diet. To put it nicely. Perhaps it was the roundest of them all, the man [Andrew DiMino -- Carbsmart.com?] who handed out the various "low carb" products that are advertising for his company. [Google translation]

People I know who have been totally unsuccessful on Atkins have gleefully loaded up on "substitutes" that probably have derailed them.  And the Atkins company that sells this crap will forever keep the Atkins mantra from the gaining the credibility it probably deserves.

also curious as to how butter could cause a rise in insulin. butter has even less/no carbs compared to cheese, and in previous posts you've said cheese doesnt cause blood sugar rises...

also many health food stores, grocery co-ops, and whole foods and trader joes sell either no nitrate-added or uncured deli meats and bacon. applegate and niman ranch are brands that sell these foods.

Bill you said:

"Excessive consumption of animal products--Non-restriction of fat often leads to over-reliance on animal products. Higher intakes of red meats (heme proteins?) have been strongly associated with increased risk for colon and other gastrointestinal tract cancers. It is not a fat issue; it is an animal product issue. We should consume less meat, more vegetables and other plant-sourced foods."

I don't think this is true Bill. As far as I'm aware, there is no good evidence to support protein as cancer causing. Dr. Eades has debunked this on his blog.

Andrew, scroll down and see the section on conservation of energy for why calories in vs out is faulty: http://entropyproduction.blogspot.com/2009/02/all-medical-science-is-wrong-within-95.html

Ditto what Tim said. My understanding is that it's the whey in dairy that is insulinogenic (tho it's a bit like the glycemic index ... it depends on when and what you eat it with).

Butter should not be as big a problem. One of my go-tos is ghee from grass-fed cows. The small amount of milk solids left in butter are removed when ghee is made.

If you cut out animal protein, dairy, and carbs, there's not much left to eat.

The protein sources favored by vegetarians, beans, rice, and grains, make blood sugar increase too much for people with diabetes.

One can not live on tofu and fat alone, and anyway some people say too much soy is not good.

I don't know why people have a prejudice against dairy. See this:

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/7/1579.full

If you have a diabetic tendency, it means your beta cells aren't producing enough insulin, so a food that helps them along is good.

Well said Dr. Davis!  We were certainly appreciative of your presence on the Low-Carb Cruise.  THANK YOU so much for all of your contributions...we need to get you back on the podcast later this year.

Too many calories on a high fat diet? Good luck keeping that up. I can't get 2000 most days. Too full.

Why were there traditional societies that used dairy as a staple yet were free of CVD and diabetes, including the super long lived people on the border of Eastern Europe and Central Asia?

Copy and paste the above argument for "eating too much meat."

Low carb may not be for everyone, but the biggest problem with some low carbers is probably too much n-6 from processed meat. Lots of nuts aren't that good for you either.

What is the alternative for animal protein? Soy, gluten,beans, nuts all cause other problems?

Please suggest some sample of improved Atkin diet.

Again Low carb is NOT zero carb. Many atkins folks don't really read the diet. I used atkins succesfully last year and eat more veggies then I ever did. It is not all about meqat meat meat or even high protein. And as much as I enjoy your blog- you still have a huge fear of fat. With Atkins I have improved my metabolic problems.

I've been concerned to learn, here and elsewhere, that dairy products are insulinogenic, particularly since I can't seem to manage a reasonable diet without a fair amount of them.  (Nuts don't do well with me, soy is a no-go, I can only eat so much meat, my family has egg-allergy issues, and the fish that is non-contaminated, sustainably caught, not-BPA-canned, not-fed omega-6 and dioxin-laced stuff in a disgusting fish farm, is wicked expensive and logistically impossible to get fresh for my family more than once a week....)

On the other hand, there are several dairy-reliant cultures that are quite long-lived and healthy, and dairy-consuming people in our own culture tend to be healthier than non-dairy eaters.  So maybe something mitigates the insulin question with dairy.  Just saying.

In the end, you have to eat something, and sometimes reading this blog I feel I can't eat anything.  Like Dana Law, I'd like a better picture of what an ideal, or at least acceptable, day's or week's diet would look like from your point of view.

I've followed Atkins for these last three years, losing 80lbs in the process, so am quite familiar with what's permitted and not.

Atkins did not recommend consuming any milk, nor was much yogurt or cottage cheese permitted. Hard cheese, cream cheese and heavy cream are allowed, but the Atkins diet permits less than 2-3 oz per day.

Butter is allowed liberally, but is 100% fat so can't be very insunlinotropic, if at all.

Because I raise dairy goats, until three years ago, I drank goat milk freel.  Now I never drink it, though I do have a glass of very sour kefir now and then, after the probiotics have cultured most of the lactose into lactic acid.  The kefir I drink is very tart. Most people don't like it that sour. lol

The "Atkins is High-Protein" myth is often bandied about by anti-low-carb groups. I track my daily intake on FitDay and it's usually about 15-18% protein, 65-70% fat, and 10-20% carbs... pretty much what Atkins recommended; even 20% protein is not especially high protein.

My carbs come mostly from eggs, green vegetables, heavy cream for coffee, berries and other LC fruit, and certain nuts and seeds, like flax.  Peanut butter is very carby, and not freely allowed in Atkins.

I recommend reading the old Atkins book to understand what his diet really contains. Read the 1972 version, as the newer books (after 1999) were changed by Atkins Nutritionals to allow low-carb junk food that they conveniently sell.

I don't want anybody to hear "don't eat meat" here.

I think that you should eat meat. I am a former vegetarian and I don't particularly like meat. Despite this, I do feel that humans are meant to be carnivorous. I just don't believe that piling your plate high with animal products several times per day is the ideal way to eat.

Dr. Davis, you sure it was "Atkins low-carbers" you were with?

"Excessive consumption of animal products"

At least with DANDR 2002, as you go up higher on the rungs, meat is replaced somewhat by veggies.  Personally, I eat around 200g of meat per day.  Of that, less than 90g is red meat (the rest is fish.)

"Consumption of cured meat"

I love bacon as much as the next guy, but in even Dr. Atkins stated in DANDR 20002 that one should "try to avoid meat and fish products cured with nitrates, which are known carcinogens."

As for dairy, it's not taboo but still has to be fitted into the carbs you are allowed per day.

This is the second blog post since the trip you have me scratching my head.  I hit your 60-60-60 markers using oat bran all the while being IGT and sporting an A1c of 4.8%.  (And before anyone asks, in DANDR 2002 Dr. Atkins mentions oat bran to bring down your cholesterol levels.)

Dr. Davis says:

"I just don't believe that piling your plate high with animal products several times per day is the ideal way to eat."

Try to do that for an extended period of time. I lasted about 2 weeks. Now I have a very small meaty breakfast, and a modest size meaty dinner, and I'm STUFFED. Been like this for years. Can't eat lunch-not hungry.

You prefer plant foods which is great, but you're not in a carnivore's shoes. From our perspective, what you say is rather silly because many of us actually worry about not getting enough calories! Fat is filling. I'm a 6ft, 165 lb male and I can barely get 2000 calories I feel so full.

Amen to Zach. I'm a PUFA-phobe, and if there's no grass-fed meat or butter in my diet, where am I going to get my fat?
Nuts? (PUFAs)
Soy? (Won't eat it unless it's fermented--like miso)
SUPER-skeptical about your claim regarding insulinotropic dairy. If it is so chronic disease-inducing, wouldn't the Swiss of the Loetschental Valley been prematurely "toes up in the dirt" of the emerald green countryside before Weston Price would have arrived to find out how spectacular their health was because of the dairy they consumed?

Brilliance abounds here: http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/18/sat-fat-or-pufa-which-one-do-you-fear.html

Hey, Gretchen,

Thanks for the link!  Good to know, and I was wondering about whether producing more insulin would be good or bad for me.  I had gestational diabetes, so I do have a diabetic tendency.  I'll keep eating my yogurt, then.

Helen

Here's a good take on the conventional "wisdom" of nitrates: http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2008/07/does-banning-hotdogs-and-bacon-make.html

Matt:

"Being too low in carbohydrates - being in ketosis is anti-metabolic and induces insulin resistance, and probably why Atkins suggested that his diet 'tends to shut down the thyroid.'"

I generally find your thoughts to be spot-on, so there's no need to manipulate Atkins' quote to enhance your point.  What he said was that dieting in general tends to shut down the thyroid.

"[P]rolonged dieting [including ‘this one’] tends to shut down thyroid function."

Dr Davis -
Could you please post your "typical" breakfast, lunch, and dinner? I've been reading this blog for awhile (and it's great), and have read a lot of what NOT to eat, but haven't read much on what TO eat. What should our 3 square meals/day look like?

I knew that dairy was insulinotropic, but like Emily, I was surprised to see butter on the list as butter is mostly fat, and clarified butter entirely fat.  As I understand, it is protein-rich foods like beef, chicken, and fish, that provoke unexpectedly high insulin responses, so I thought it was either the sugars or the protein in dairy, not the fat, that spiked a rise in blood sugar.  Is butter really insulinotropic like other dairy products containing lactose sugars and proteins?

Another comment about dairy and weight gain:

I have noticed that melted cheese in particular - a warm, creamy fat with some carbs and protein - is highly palatable.  Full-fat yogurt, whipped cream, and guacamole are similarly irresistible.  I could not consume more than a couple tablespoons of olive oil yet have no trouble gobbling down a few slices of cheese melted onto a piece of chicken or beef.  I'm trying to shave off 5 more pounds to reach my goal, so I've given up all dairy except for clarified butter, which I use to saute veggies.  Will see if this works.

Most of the low-carbers on the cruise seemed to be overweight.  I don't know if some of them were just starting eating low carb.  I think this is what prompted Davis' post.  If you are still overweight doing low-carb - are you doing something wrong? Should slimness be a goal every low-carber can meet (apart from all the other health benefits)?

Hi, Fred!

We had some great conversations. I learned a lot from your "slow-burn" discussions and I've been applying them to my workouts.

Good to see you here! I will be detailing some of the fat/animal product/cancer discussions in future.

"I do feel that humans are meant to be carnivorous. I just don't believe that piling your plate high with animal products several times per day is the ideal way to eat."

I'm scratching my head trying to reconcile these two statements.

How about eating animal products to hunger once or twice a day?

Haggus--

Excellent point.

What Bob Atkins called "the Atkins Diet" was somewhat different from what is commonly practiced as "the Atkins Diet."

As time passes, I continue to marvel at how much he got right.

How high is "too high?" I say this not to be a smart aleck or to overlook the wisdom in "you'll know it when you see it," but this is a bit too vague to be of much use.

Clearly a largely plant-based diet supplemented with a decent amount of animal protein will trump loading up heavily on animal products to the exclusion of plant-based foods. But there's far too many vague generalizations being bandied about by so-called dietary experts these days and not a lot of concrete recommendations that can be tailored to fit a person's unique context.

-Bob Sutcliff

Wow. Echoing a few other commenters, I'd really like some guidelines on what a good diet would look like.

Jenny said: "I track my daily intake on FitDay and it's usually about 15-18% protein, 65-70% fat, and 10-20% carbs... pretty much what Atkins recommended...."

Whenever I read this sort of thing, I get confused. 15-18% of WHAT? the total calories? and if so then how do I translate that percentage into actual amounts (like grams or ounces?)

I'm sure most of you can straighten me out on this once and for all. Thanks!

Dr. Davis,

it would be great after such lengthy and detailed discussions about this topic to give us a typical sample food or meal list for a day of yours.
Looking forward to it.

Renfrew

Fred Hahn: I'm mixed up about your two posts here, "People need to get this into their heads" and "Not true."

I would also like to see a typical day in the life of Dr. Davis.

Anon-  Yes, they mean a % of total calories.  You can figure it this way:

1g Protein = 4 cals
1g Carb = 4 cals
1g Fat = 9 cals

So if a person eats 2000 cals/day and 18% was from protein, then that person ate approximately 360 cals of protein.  Divide 360 by 4 and you get 90 grams of protein.

I agree that there are many low carbers who follow their eating plan less than optimally. I see them posting on the low carb forums I follow. But as one who was also on the cruise, I don't think you can really equate cruise eating with what people eat on a normal day-to-day basis!

I had resolved to eat only "real food" on the cruise, as I almost always do at home, and I had resolved not to snack. And I was pretty good about my resolve. I didn't snack, ate only three meals a day, avoided the flour, sugar, even the sugar-free cheesecake and other things provided.

But did I eat exactly the way I would eat at home? No, I didn't. I undoubtedly ate more than I would have eaten at home, and probably certainly more protein sources than I would have eaten at home. The last night of the cruise I even broke down and had one of the sugar-free margaritas, and I had a half glass of red wine at the comedy show.

And I'm sure my PUFA intake was higher than I would normally like. We had no control over how foods were prepared in the kitchen after all, or very little.

But this was 5 days out of my life, not a lifetime of eating. I didn't gain any weight on the cruise and indeed have even hit a new low this week since being back. Overall I've lost more than 100 pounds.  

I'm not convinced of the meat/cancer link either - though too much protein raises my blood sugar so I don't normal OD on protein much. I was never a vegetarian but often thought I could have gone that way as I'm not all that crazy about meat. But now I have an "It's them or me" attitude and look for meats I  enjoy better - just not too much.

Apparently Matt Stone has challenged my son to try out a super-low-calorie, essentially fat-free diet, based on 1930s research by Evans and Strang, and I'm following his progress with interest. But at the moment it's not for me. I still love my butter and coconut oil.

But we are all so different, and what works for one may not work well for another. But I wonder how many low carbers eat at home the same way they ate on the cruise?

Well said Dr. Davis!

Jimmy this is not at all what you promote.  I am confused by your comment.

Dr. Davis, are you choosing to ignore all those who have asked you to defend your claims (and the great questions asked).  This is the first post I have ever read by you that makes me shake my head.  

Sally Sue

Anon said: "Whenever I read this sort of thing, I get confused. 15-18% of WHAT? the total calories? and if so then how do I translate that percentage into actual amounts (like grams or ounces?)"

Percentages of my daily food intake. I used percentages because everyone has a different calorie ceiling where we stop losing weight. The ceiling calorie limit usually changes as you lose weight; but the percentage of Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates should remain the same.

My daily calorie limit is now around 1500 calories; when I weighed 80 lbs more, it was closer to 2000 calories; and at 2000 calories back then I was losing 3-4 lbs a week.  Either way, the grams/oz of Potein/Fat/Carbs that I eat probably won't relate well to you; but percentages can and will.

By the way, I use a food-tracking program called FitDay, that calculates your food entries into P/F/C, and into grams/oz and percentages, and also gives daily vitamin/mineral counts as well as for individual foods.  It's really quite interesting to compare the nutrition counts of different foods; that way you can see what's really worth eating.  Meat contains a lot more than just protein... it has a lot of essential vitamins and minerals, actually.

FitDay is free online, but the purchased version is much more convenient; I paid $25 three years ago and consider the money well spent.

You should track your own food intake to see for yourself what percentages your current diet contains... you might be surprised. Food tracking, whether through FitDay or some other program, is the single most useful thing that helps keep me on track.

Red meat and intestinal cancer isn't strongly linked.  In fact, it seems to be dissolving under tougher scrutiny.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/73040.php

"Recent studies published in the journal Cancer Science have disproved the common myth that consumption of red meat increases colorectal cancer  risk."

Eat for health, not for weight loss. I agree.

However, if, perchance, you believed that you ate for health, yet the same diet kept you fat, or God forbid kept you emaciated, would you really be eating for health then?

Re Anonymous and "percentages."  This drives me crazy too.  Without a total daily calorie count, percentages are meaningless.  So what if I eat "10%" carbs, if I am noshing on 6000 calories a day?

To answer your question: yes, you do have to do some simple math.  First, figure out the number of calories in the given percentage, using a hypothetical total daily caloric intake.  40% of 2,000 calories, for example, would be 800 calories.  A carb has roughly 4-5 calories per gram, so that would equate to around 200 grams of carbs.  Protein is similar.  Fat, on the other hand, has 9 calories per gram.  So those 800 calories would be slightly less than 90 grams of fat.

Once you start doing it, it gets easier.  Practice on food labels!

Anon - most food values are given as a % of calories.  For example if you are eating 2000 calories/day of which 70% is fat, then you're eating about 155 gms of fat per day (2000 x 0.70 = 1400/9 = 155 gms). Fat has about 9 calories/gm; carbs & protein each have about 4 calories/gm.

As for "...15 to 18% of what" that would depend on what you're eating.  Three ounces of white fish (raw) has about 16 gms of protein; 3 oz of beef chuck (raw) has about 28 gms of protein.

Beth:

That doesn't prove that calories in vs. calories out is faulty.  The calories in vs. calories out concept is simply the theory that you will lose weight if you eat below BMR, regardless of what foods you eat.  The Thermodynamics argument is misapplied to this concept, IMO.

Perhaps we are simply thinking of two different concepts.

Some highlighted words from the original post: overconsumption, excessive consumption, and too many calories. The point seems to be that a little rich food goes a long way. Oh, and don't eat food that causes cancer.

Sue said,"Most of the low-carbers on the cruise seemed to be overweight. I don't know if some of them were just starting eating low carb. I think this is what prompted Davis' post. If you are still overweight doing low-carb - are you doing something wrong? Should slimness be a goal every low-carber can meet (apart from all the other health benefits)?"

I was on the cruise and yes, many of the cruisers were overweight.  Some are just starting a low carb lifestyle, and some are not.  I personally have lost over 150 lbs on low carb and maintained that loss for nearly 2 years now.  I consider that a success, however, I am not thin by any means and am working on about 50 more lbs.  I took the advice from many of the speakers, Dr. Davis included, and have worked it into my daily routines.  As a registered nurse, I am aware of nutrition both mainstream and low carb.  I do my research.  I try to eat cleanly most of the time.  Life interferes sometimes, much as is does for anyone who is human and as I know it has for some of the individuals who were on the cruise.  I do believe individuals who are or have been morbidly obese are vastly different from your average American with 30 lbs to lose.  Everything happens on a grander scale.  We lose weight bigger and gain weight bigger.  All I know is I've lost 100+ lbs using the Standard American Diet--twice.  Within a year I gained it back--twice.  Finding a low carb diet has saved my life.  I eat in normal portion sizes, I maintain. Is it for everyone? No.  Is it the only way? No.  But it is one way that works for many people who really need it.  

Thanks Dr. Davis, for your presentation.  I truly enjoyed it.

"Higher intakes of red meats (heme proteins?) have been strongly associated with increased risk for colon and other gastrointestinal tract cancers."

Really? Strong association? If that's true, then how do you explain this?:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2008.26838v1

Hilary said:

"Really? Strong association? If that's true, then how do you explain this?:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2008.26838v1"

Hilary, I have not formed an opinion one way or the other on this issue yet, but the study you cite was "Supported in part by the Cattlemen's Beef Board, through the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, and the National Pork Board."

Re my question as to how to translate percentages of protein, fat and carbs into grams, I should've have asked my trusted friend "google" instead of taking up someone's time here. So please forgive me.

But Thanks! to those who responded. Your explanations were very helpful.

Meanwhile, I found a site which will do all that computation for me and thought I'd pass it on.
http://www.freedieting.com/tools/nutrient_calculator.htm

Hi I was on the cruise and thoroughly enjoyed it. Sue, Yes I am overweight according to my BMI of 29, I was on the cruise the first year by the second i was 20 pound lighter by the time I got on this years cruise since last year I have lost 54 pound. Yes I am still as you say overweight but I am doing something about it. Sorry I wasn't "normal" for this year but I will be for next year. Snacks were handed out but the message was clear that these are treats and a preferable treat than something high carb and sugar loaded. There were new people there and others who have been doing it a while and of those we are all less than when we started. We had some excellent speakers i.e. Dana Carpender who spends her life educating us how to make foods using our own ingredients she even said you can put weight on eating low carb as we still can make the wrong choices. We all have the same problem with food do we not but we are prepared to be educated by the fabulous speakers who went to help us and gave their time freely to pass on their knowledge.

A big big thank you to them and you Dr Davis

Ailsa who came one the cruise all the way from the UK.

I've been reading your blog for a couple years and really enjoy doing so. I think you've got it wrong on the Atkins diet, though. I don't know where you got your information and I'm pretty sure you didn't read the books. Milk and yogurt aren't on the "diet". Atkins also told you to not eat cured meats. As far as calories are concerned, Atkins also told people to not eat too much! So... I'm having a lot of difficulty with this article in particular & wanted to pipe up. I'll go back to readin' the rest of your blog now. Thanks for all your efforts in keeping this blog up and running. -- Mike

Dr. Davis, have greatly enjoyed your insights on this blog over the year. Have had your book for a couple of years. Have noticed great benefits from your vitamin D recommendations. When is your updated Track Your Plaque book coming out? I thought it was coming out toward the end of last year? Any ETA on it? Very interested in seeing your recommendations as it relates to diet? Typical recommended breakfasts, lunchs, and dinners?

George

This seems consistent with Ray Peat's advice as far as meat meat is concerned- he recommends balancing meat intake with gelatin so as to not get too much iron (hemeprotein afterall) as well as the fact that it has a less inflammatory amino acid profile (muscle is high in tryptophan and histidine wheras gelatin has no tryptophan and lots of glycine and proline...)

Also he mentions that he always drinks coffee when he eats red meat so as to block iron overload even more!

Of course he has no problems with milk, butter and cheese consumption but prefers the latter b/c curds have a better amino profile than whey.

Over the years, I've looked closely at the studies associating red meat with colorectal cancer, and it appears to be impossible from them to separate the effects of modern meat production practices from that of the meat. In other words, it is as likely as not that what's wrong with the red meat is what we put into it, and how it is grown, versus any attribute of the meat itself.

However, whatever the cause of the problem, it pays to at least limit consumption of red meat that you buy in a supermarket.

Hi Dr Davis,

Thanks for sharing your comments. I am a big Atkins Diet follower, and we all need to remind ourselves to keep the intake of "processed" meat & foods to a minimum. Vegetables are a good way to go! Thanks for providing us <a href ="http://atkinsdietinformation.blogspot.com>Atkins Diet</a> followers with such relevant and important information

Cheers,

John

I think it's bizarre to associate ANYONE'S eating habits on a cruise with what their day-to-day life is like.

My normal food would not be available on a cruise: homemade yogurt and kefir made from fresh raw whole milk mixed with berries, pastured eggs with dark yellow yolks cooked in pastured butter, pastured meat, fresh organic fruits and vegetables, homemade chocolate made with coconut oil, cocoa, almonds and stevia... I don't see a cruise line providing food like this.

So, I'd probably do sugar-free cheesecake too, or wind up overeating fresh fruit, just cause there'd not be any of my food there.

When I travel, I do Wendy's burgers using the lettuce as a bun if hitting a drive-through or really crappy salad bars with not much beyond iceberg lettuce.

Sometimes, you do the best you can with the circumstances... cause to eat really WELL, you pretty much need a kitchen.

This article contains huge inventory of knowledge and telling about the diet and what to eat or not.

healthty diet is important..nice article about diet

Thanks for sharing this very useful tips.

Really some truth to the fact that people from Mediterranean areas are seldom obese despite eating a very high fat diet? Did science get it all wrong before? Was there a national conspiracy to force people to eat boring, healthy foods? Thanks for your good suggestion.

Welcome to visit-
weight loss accelerator.
Cheap Calorad

I haven't eaten meat or dairy in long time. Humans don't need meat or dairy. I think meat is disgusting and I'm glad I don't have to eat it. I've seen meat-eaters B-12 deficient, so this shows eating meat doesn't necessarily make someone sufficient in B-12. Methylcobalamin B-12 works great. Eating red meat apparently increases colon and breast cancer risk. I think meat was meant to be an option, just like grains or legumes. Humans were designed to survive on many different things. Plant foods are affordable and bearable for me - meat is not.

Overconsumption of dairy products--Dairy products, especially milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, and butter, are potent insulinotropic foods, i.e., foods that trigger insulin release. There can be up to a tripling of insulin (area-under-the-curve) levels. This is not good in a world populated with tired, overworked pancreases, exhausted from a lifetime of high-carbohydrate eating.

hey guys,
you out there had some great conversations that help me learn a lot from your, atkins diet, "slow-burn" discussions, meat consumption and being vegetarian.

Nice exchange of great ideas, keep going guys and thanks Dr. Davis.

What do you make of this 'physiological insulin resistance' and its role in creeping weight gain on too low carb
http://www.lowcarbconversations.com/344/22-barbara-rose-dean-dwyer-paleo-guy-weston-price-gal-discuss-body-image-more/#comment-306963040

Hi, Lance--

I've not heard this argument before. If you've got the references for the studies showing this effect, I'd be happy to take a look.

In real life, I've not seen this play out. People who restrict carbs, lose visceral fat, drop HbA1c, glucose, and insulin. Maintaining the diet does not, over the years, allow recrudescence of the phenomena of insulin resistance.

Had a bowl of oatmeal less than one hour ago. Old-fashioned oats, artificial sweetener, cinnamon. Now I am wiped out. Tired, sleepy. I don't even need a glucose meter to tell me the oatmeal reeked havoc on my blood sugar.

I always feel this way after eating certain carbs. Used to think old-fashioned oatmeal was okay. But it's just not. Not for me anyway. By the way, I'm hypoglycemic.

Agreed Dr. Davis... wish all would "Read and Heed" this advice.

Question: you are referring to Type 2 Diabetes only, right?

All the best.

Steve

Most drug stores including Walmart and Target carry a small disposable meter that looks like a 35mm film bottle.  Very cheap and includes 50 test strips.  Next cheapest I've found is the Walmart ReliOn Ultima meter which is around $9 and you buy the strips at the Pharmacy (only since people steal them) for around $39 for 100.  When I first started Primal, my sugar readings were all over the place and then within 3-4 months of eating low-carb my reading became really stable all day long.  I think I had to burn through my over abundant glycogen stores first (it was mostly causing high waking pre-breakfast readings).

I'm going to try this with the BG meter we use for our diabetic cat. It measures in mmol/L and the recommended BG targets are 4.0-7.0 before meals/5.0-10.0 2hrs. after. (for humans)
Is this similar to your recommendation of100 mg/d,l Dr Davis?

Can it cure type I diabetes as well?

I am a diabetic and I find the inexpensive Wallmart brand ReliOn Micro is a great value.

@ $20 for meter and strips. Refill strips @ $12 per 20.

Just a "heads up" for others.  I ordered the Walmart Relion BG meter ($9) and a supply of strips and lancets online only to have Walmart CANCEL the BG meter (no reason available) and send me the strips and lancets (which I will have to return as they are useless to me without the Relion BG meter).  Walmart's website still says the BG meters are "in stock" when clearly they are not and customer service had no explanation for that either.

I'll visit your earlier post to find a comparable meter.

Dr. Davis: "This is why low-glycemic index is an absurd notion."

Does this mean the Dreamfields pasta claim of being low-carb is misleading, at best?

I've been contemplating trying it, but fear it really isn't low carb.

i am curious about the effect that the oatmeal that i sometimes eat would have on my blood glucose levels.

i take 3 cups of raw oats, soak them in warm water with 8 tablespoons of raw whey and add 2 heaping tablespoons of organic buckwheat flour and let them soak for 24 hours. drain and rinse thoroughly. pour the oats into a baking casserole dish and add some coconut oil, blueberries, pure vanilla, cinnamon, buttermilk. bake at 350 for 40 minutes.

the result is a very delicious and highly altered form of oats. the whey and buckwheat drastically reduce the phytic acid and 'ferment' or predigest the oats. when it's done, i just add a couple spoons of pasture butter and enjoy. i've noticed a significant change in texture as a result. the oats are no longer firm. they feel quite 'broken down' and they do not sit in my stomach like a brick.

why go through all that trouble? well... you should taste it. it is quite the treat.

I appreciate the information in your blog.  I started checking my blood sugar and was shocked at the results of some 'low glycemic index' foods.  Besides the basic health benefits of maintaining healthy blood glucose, I've also lost a few pounds.  Bonus!

Desia,

I'm diabetic and from the UK where we measure blood glucose in mmol/L - to convert from mg/dl to mmol/L just divide by 18 - so 100 is 5.5. Multiply by 18 to convert your mmol/L to mg/dl.

Oatmeal and other high-carb foods won't cause blood sugar spikes if you are lean, get regular exercise,  eat high-carb foods on a regular basis, and don't have health problems. All 4 of the above conditions must be met. In particular, you MUST exercise, though the exerciser doesn't have to be lengthy.

I find keeping my bodyfat under 15% (I'm a 50 year-old male, women would have a higher percentage) and doing 5 to 10 minutes of one-legged squats, which gets my blood pumping and is much more convenient than running, is enough to keep my insulin sensitivity high enough to avoid blood sugar surges.

Yesterday, for example, I had a single large meal in the late afternoon, due to being too busy to eat most of the day: a half can of salmon, a large salad, 300g (dry) of cooked oats mixed with about 6 grams of cinnamon all eaten within about 30 minutes. My blood sugar never exceeded 110 mg/dL during the subsequent 3 hours (I measured every 30 minutes) and eventually fell back to the normal level of about 85.

When I experimented with a paleo diet for a while, my insulin sensitivity plummeted, so that when I broke the paleo regime temporarily and ate a mere 100g (dry) of cooked oats, my blood sugar skyrocketed to 195 mg/dL 30 minutes later. And note that those oats were eaten together with 2 eggs and some veggies, which would normally tend to mute the glycemic index as opposed to eating oats by themselves. Evidently, what happened while eating paleo is that my body's cells had down-regulated their insulin sensitivity. This makes sense, since there is no need for high insulin sensitivity when eating paleo, and the greater danger under these conditions is low blood sugar rather than high blood sugar. Only when glucose is abundant (regularly eating a high carb diet) does the body upregulate insulin sensitivity. But the upregulation won't occur if the body is fat or doesn't get regular exercise. And, of course, it obviously won't occur for someone with a "burned out" pancreas, such as Type II diabetics supposedly have.

Anne, thanks for the info. (I'm from Canada)

Has there been any studies citing any differences in regular oats versus soaking/sprouted oats? I wonder if the neutralizing of the phytic acid that helps in digestions would also help the way the body breaks down the oats and, therefore, insulin response.

Jeff -

I have used Dreamfields for about 6 months now.  They claim the carbs are "locked up" and can't be digested.  I have found they do not affect blood glucose like regular pasta would.

However they are still wheat, which has it's own problems even if the special processing prevents blood glucose spikes. I still have it once or twice a month when the rest of my "non-low carb" family has pasta, but I know I have to quit wheat all together soon, just hard to do. For now it's the lesser of two evils.

"Oatmeal and other high-carb foods won't cause blood sugar spikes if you are lean, get regular exercise, eat high-carb foods on a regular basis, and don't have health problems."

Absolutely. But this is a blog about reversing heart disease...

It's dangerous to talk about "curing" diabetes with a low-carb diet. Someone with type 2 who goes on a LC diet may be able to maintain normal blood sugar levels as long as s/he stays on the diet. But the diabetes is not cured. Returning to a standard American diet would result in high blood sugar again.

A diabetes cure would mean you could eat cereal, skim milk, orange juice, toast, and jam and keep your blood sugar levels normal.

The danger of telling someone he/she is cured is that the person will believe it, will return to a regular diet, and will stop testing, not realizing how high blood sugars are and will end up in a worse situation than he/she started with.

That is it! I am buying a glucosameter! I sometimes get a little bit lethargic from any big meal, if I simple add cabbage soup to my usual stake + sauerkraut lunch.

To Gretchen:
It is very dangerous to be so stupid(or reluctant to think) as the individual you just described.

I enjoy this blog, but I do frequently agree with those who say that the grandiose effects of eating grains that you present are often times found more common place in people with metabolic problems. For example, while I was in college, I had a dorm mate who read some random article about gluten and suddenly believed herself to be suffering from Celiac Disease. My friends and I labeled her an hypochondriac, going so far as feeding her a deadly, lethal oatmeal cookie (gasp!) which we passed off as consisting of "a grain-like substance produced from the dried roots of a Japanese plant." My dorm mate ate the cookie and low and behold - nothing. Weeks prior she claimed to have taken a few bites of Frosted Mini Wheats in the cafeteria and subsequently suffered a debilitating pain in her stomach. Moral of the story is that her fear of gluten and the pain she felt from consuming Frosted Mini Wheats were purely psychosomatic.

I guess what I'm at getting at is you provide good information, but often times the entries you write are reminiscent of the blogs/journals/prose/essays written by individuals such as the Unibomber. In a half-serious, half-jocular manner, I always feel like one day I'll read/hear in the news, "Man opens [gun] fire within an oatmeal factory," and [to no one's surprise] it'll be you. I'm not accusing you of actually perpetuating such an act, but you write with such vigor about something like wheat/grains, and it gives off the "vibe" that you are harboring some hardcore resentment.

Once again, I enjoy your overall blog, but your hasty generalizations and confusing cause-and-effect can be misleading and overly exaggerated.

Hi, Steve--

Actually, the same advice applies to all forms of diabetes. Type 1 and "intermediate" types, i.e., slender people with diabetes, LADA, etc., can still follow a similar program with equally extravagant results.

However, the blood sugar tightrope is much more difficult to walk for these people and should be undertaken with the assistance of the (sadly, rare) assistance of a knowledgeable expert in doing so.

Hi, Amy Jo--

Ahh. Your comment alone made writing this post worth it. Thank you.

There is an odd sentiment that sometimes prevails: If it doesn't apply to me, it must not be true. As if everyone wore a size 13 shoe.

How about oatmeal (steel cut)if:
15 min blood sugar 127
30 min blood sugar 150s
45 min blood sugar 125
60 min blood sugar back to 95?

As much as this wheat-free idea kills me, I'm going to try to at least quit my sweetened cereal habit each morning. My fasting sugar is good - 81, but my triglycerides are still monstrous at 292 even with niacin and fish oil. On a semi-related matter, I confirmed for myself that dry Vitamin D doesn't work. I've been using Life Extension brand cholecalciferol 5,000 units a day for months, and my levels barely rose - from 33 to 36. Got a shipment of the carlson oil caps and I'm going to try 8,000 and see where that leads.

Hi,
Thank you for this great post!  
I was diagnosed borderline diabetic, glucose intolerant/insulin resistant over 10 years ago. I figured out that a glucose meter could really help improve my health so I used it faithfully for many years. Now the strips are very expensive so I have cut back. But I learned an incredible amount while  using the glucometer.
This is a fabulous method, and I highly recommend it.

My friend started feeding his diabetic cat low carb chow, and the cat went into shock when she got her insulin shot.
The vet said her blood sugar had returned to normal, should no longer get insulin.

Thanks Dr. Davis.  I have been following your advice to use the meter to lose weight and I find it really works!  I am finding the food that sends my blood sugar high and I am trying to avoid them.  
Char

Here's a way of using the glucose meter that I came across just this week: don't eat unless blood glucose has dropped to a normal level even if it means eating once a day.

http://shurie.com/lee/writing_defeat_diabetes.htm

Heart effect of Doc's recommendation is very important if you are not young. Human ageing is accompanied by histological (molecular and cellular) changes in the vascular smooth muscle cells of the artery wall. It means that over time formation of atheroscleroma (plaque) becomes easier to develop - even if it has not done so, yet.

Technically the molecules that are big players in the pro-inflammatory cycle are MCP-1 (monocyte chemo-attractant protein 1), MMP-2 (matrix metallo-proteinase type-II) and TGF-B1 (transforming growth factor beta-1). With age these are found circulating in elevated amounts; even in individuals without clinical problems. In other words genetic expression of them is upregulated, and it appears that age induces this epigenetic activation even if there is no diagnosable pathology.

Now, Doc's clinical instruction is to hold down the small LDL production and reign in circulating triglycerides. This is because those are what will provide the fodder for the pro-inflammatory molecules' loop of interaction to actually go on to "make" actual plaque.

Blood sugar spikes, according to Doc, are apparently the stalking horse for setting up our aged vascular system for pathological problems. We are accustomed to think of blood sugar as only a diabetics dilema; and so, many non-diabetics mistake Doc's insistance as not applicable to them.

And, to those readers who have their own method of carbohydrate consumption it would be instructive to learn if any have tested, and might share, your small LDL percentage (mine is unsatisfactory to me, based on Doc's recommended %). This can add some perspective to see if this blog's "glucomania" is somewhat overblown.

Ebay is also a good source of meters and test strips.  Some out of date, but less important for non diabetic purposes.

donny wrote: "But this is a blog about reversing heart disease..."

It's for Dr. Davis and not me to say what this blog is about, but my impression is that the goal is not just reversing but also preventing heart disease in the first place (and also the other ailments mentioned in the current post).

Many of the people on the blog are healthy and want to stay that way, as opposed to being sick and wanting to be cured. I think I am in the first category myself, though I'm still awaiting the results of blood tests to know for sure. Already, I have made the following changes in my life due to reading this blog:

1) taking 2000 IU/day of vitamin D3 in gel capsule.
2) vitamin D blood test after a few months of the D3 supplement regime.
3) using the glucose monitor to learn about my response to carbs.
4) getting a VAP test to learn if I have Lp(a) and also get my VLDL numbers.
5) Hb1Ac test.

I am quite grateful for Dr Davis for pushing me to making these changes, but I think the anti-grain/anti-oatmeal focus is misguided.

There is an epidemic of obsesity and type II diabetes in Pacific Islanders who eat junk food nowadays, but who were formerly lean on their traditional paleo low-carb diet of fish and coconuts. So why don't they go back to the fish and coconuts? BECAUSE CARBS ARE TASTY AND LOW-CARB DIETS ARE BORING. And there you have the argument against the paleo low-carb diet in a nutshell. The evidence is clear: Atkins works in the short run, but not the long run (at least for most people) because we naturally crave carbs. Sure, if you have willpower, you can hold off a year or so, but eventually you'll fall off the wagon. And when you do, you'll go ape over those carbs, because you haven't learned how to manage them. Whereas if your normal diet is high-wholegrain-carb (after using Atkins for losing weight in a hurry), then there is much less danger of losing control of yourself when you eat some sugar in addition to your usual wholegrains.

High-carb diets are tricky to manage, because there is nothing to stop you from overeating, unlike with Atkins, where the body tends to resist overeating. But tricky is not the same as impossible. Part of the trick, in my experience, involves eating lots of wholegrains or tubers: wheat, rice, oats, corn, potatoes, etc. (Another part involves staying lean, and by lean, I mean ribs showign for men, as is a little strenuous exercise each day.) And that is why I keep arguing against this blanket indictment by Dr Davis against grains, and especially against oatmeal, which is the most health-inducing of the common grains for many people.

@Might-o'chondri-AL: The chemistry panel I got back in December shows the following:

Total chol: 152
HDL       :  70
Trig      :  39
VLDL calc :   8
LDL calc  :  74

The two LDL scores are calculated, not measured. I just got back this very morning from getting blood drawn for a VAP test (ordered through lef.org), so I'll know my tested, as opposed to calculated, VLDL numbers in a week or so.

@Might-o'chondri-AL:
The chemistry panel I had back in December showed:

Total chol: 152
Trig      : 39
HDL chol  : 70
VLDL calc : 8
LDL calc  : 74

Just this morning, I had blood drawn for a VAP test (ordered through lef.org), so when the results come back, I'll know the measured VLDL percentage numbers, as opposed to the calculated values from the chemistry panel. (I'll also learn if I have Lp(a)).

My diet back in December was similar to now: 200g to 400g (dry) per day of rolled oats, 1/3 to 1/2 can salmon, salad, sometimes low-fat cottage cheese or eggs instead of salmon, plus small quantities of "forbidden foods" that I'm allowed to eat on the way home from the grocery but am not allowed to keep in my apartment: chocolate, nuts, fruit.

I should note that I spent October and November hiking the Appalachian trail, and so was in extremely good cardiovascular condition, and also quite lean, but I was feeling damaged internally from the constant alternation of famine and feast. The feasts typically involved a gallon of ice cream, a package or two cookies, plus anything else that struck my fancy. These feasts during town stops were to avoid losing too much body fat, since it was getting cold as November progressed and I needed to retain some body fat to stay warm. It was because of that feeling of being internally damaged that I began researching health on the internet and came across this blog.

(I posted this comment before and it got deleted somehow.)

Fascinating! This is such a great idea! Thanks!

Hi, Revelo--

Great comments.

However, it helps to keep one thing in mind: The reduction or elimination of grains is not just about weight control (though it certainly does help that); it's about reduction of small LDL, triglycerides, other inflammatory phenomena, blood pressure, visceral fat, and glycation.

Wheat and oats increase blood sugar, small LDL, triglycerides, etc. to extravagant degrees.

@Revelo,
Very good reading lipid panel profile; can see why you speak up against "glucophobia".

@revelo: Hey, this is the only lipid panel I have ever seen anyone post that's close to my last one! At the time, I was eating 200-300g of carbs per day, mostly from grains. Of course I am only in my mid-20s now, but it's worth noting that this kind of lipid profile is typical for my extended family and we have absolutely no history diabetes or heart disease despite most of us being over. Bodies can handle carbohydrate so, so differently.

Like you I am lean and need to put effort into gaining body fat, but I wasn't very active when I was eating high carb, lots of grains (and plenty of junky food too as I was trying to put on weight), and it made me ill in various ways.  

I do feel my best with starch in my diet, but stick to potatoes, other tubers/root veg, and white rice - and not too much, I have always had issues with blood sugar 'crashes' although I haven't tested with a blood glucose meter to see just what's going on there. I feel awful an hour or two after eating too many carbs (and more ill after eating smaller amounts of oats, whear).

I have a question as a breakfast cereal junkie trying to kick the wheat and sugar habit: would something like rice crispies be significantly better? No wheat as far as I can tell, but there is some fructose and some malted barley involved...

For those interested in blood glucose I recommend the presentation 'What is Normal Glucose? – Continuous Glucose Monitoring Data from Healthy Subjects' by Professor Christiansen.

He uses a continuous blood glucose monitoring for 30 or so patients over a 5 day trial.  Days 2-3 set meal in clinic and days 4-5 free meals at set times.

This should give you an idea of  the expected daily ranges are for healthy subjects.

He then does an additional study on breakfast and comes to the conclusion that perhaps the fast adsorbing breakfasts we've be told to eat arn't that good for us.  Ref this blog post on oatmeal vs omelet.

Finally he looks at mortality vs blood-glucose levels.

http://www.diabetes-symposium.org/index.php?menu=view&source=&sourceid=0&chart=1&id=322

Enjoy.

Here is another presentation that y'all may find interesting as part of the 'cut grains out' argument is vLDL production that is the bad cholesterol.  I'm no biochemist but this presentation on Sugar focusing on Fructose and how it treated by the liver may interest.

Other carbs though seem to get converted to Glucose and only a tiny amount to vLDL / triglycerides.

The huge vLDL / Triglycerides production comes from fructose.  I limit my fructose to less than 10g/day.

'Sugar: The Bitter Truth'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

Enjoy.

I recently bought a ReliOn micro glucometer from Walmart after reading your recommendations, Dr. Davis. I'm 31, in excellent health, eat low-grain/starch most of the time, frequent anaerobic and aerobic exercise. My fasting glucose seems to rest in the 70-90 range.

Recently I decided to measure my glucose response after eating oatmeal. I used organic instant rolled oats and soaked them > 1 day in water with salt and lime juice, WAPF-style. I made a huge bowl of oatmeal (about 20 fluid ounces) and added blueberries and an appropriately huge amount of butter before eating. One hour later I measured my blood glucose using 2 separate test strips. I got 79 and 78. This surprised me, and I thought I'd add my data point to the discussion here.

No doubt a high fat load slowss gastric emptying and helps minimize the spike in blood glucose. Perhaps my reading would have been higher 2 hours after the meal.

What about 1 carb whey protein isolate with unsweetened almond milk?  Why does it raise blood glucose?

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/007893.html

Fructose Alters Brain Metabolism
One of the competing theories to explain the obesity epidemic is a rise in fructose consumption causing alterations in hormone levels that increase appetite. UCSF med school prof Robert Lustig has a pretty good rant-lecture on the evils of fructose. Well, here's another study on part of the mechanism in the brain of how fructose might be causing increased obesity.

PORTLAND, Ore. – The dietary concerns of too much fructose is well documented. High-fructose corn syrup has become the sweetener most commonly added to processed foods. Many dietary experts believe this increase directly correlates to the nation's growing obesity epidemic. Now, new research at Oregon Health & Science University demonstrates that the brain – which serves as a master control for body weight – reacts differently to fructose compared with another common sweetener, glucose. The research is published in the online edition of the journal Diabetes, Obesity and Metabolism and will appear in the March print edition.

In humans the cortical brain control areas of the brain were inhibited by the influx of fructose.

Functional MRI allows researchers to watch brain activity in real time. To conduct the research, nine normal-weight human study subjects were imaged as they received an infusion of fructose, glucose or a saline solution. When the resulting brain scans from these three groups were compared, the scientists observed distinct differences.

Brain activity in the hypothalamus, one brain area involved in regulating food intake, was not affected by either fructose or glucose. However, activity in the cortical brain control areas showed the opposite response during infusions of the sugars. Activity in these areas was inhibited when fructose was given but activated during glucose infusion.

This is an important finding because these control brain areas included sites that are thought to be important in determining how we respond to food taste, smells, and pictures, which the American public is bombarded with daily.

The result increases the plausibility of fructose as a causal agent.

"This study provides evidence in humans that fructose and glucose elicits opposite responses in the brain. It supports the animal research that shows similar findings and links fructose with obesity," added Purnell.

If you want to reduce your weight also consider other theories for the cause of obesity including grains as a possible major cause.

By Randall Parker 2011 February 09 05:42 PM  Brain Appetite

Oats are often cross contaminated with wheat.  Would certified gluten free oats give the same results?

I think this post is really very important. Looking forward to future extensions of it.

  I've been able to control my cholesterol cutting wheat to zero, a moderate version of paleo diet, and a little of supplements with DHA/EPA, as suggested by Dr. Davis. Now is the turn of glucose

  After reading this post I bought a glucometer (Bayer USB device) and I'm slowly learning some important things. My fasting glucose is good, about 80, however I've just seen (measured) that a simple dish of rice with fried egg rises my glucose one hour after lunch to  170!. My wife experienced a similar change. Amazing. I have lunch at work, and these measures of glucose are going to be very helpful to help me decide what to choose for the menu. I plan to continue measuring my glucose for the next weeks, so I guess news surprise will come.

I just want to thank Dr. Davis for the great help  he's providing to many people from his blog.

  Best.

Hi,

I have bought a glucometer and wnted to ask you a question.
This morning my bg was 4.9 (fasting) so very good then I ate pork then I had cashews and at 5pm I felt shakey not right, hungry so I checked it and it was 4.3 (isnt it a bit low?) so I had a pear and an hour after the pear it was 6.1, is it normal? does it mean i should avoid fruits?

thanks for your help!

I know I'm late to this party, but I took your advice and got a free glucose meter from Walgreens (came with 10 strips). Fasting blood sugar 75, ate a giant meal of steak, eggs, bacon, sausage, and sliced tomatoes, it went up to 85. On seperate days, a plain protein shake with a tad of reds powder spiked it to 112 (!!!) and my "low-carb" meat chili (no beans, just meat) launched it to 102 (lots of tomato paste/sauce). Needless to say, it's been an eye opener, especially since so-called "healthy" foods are raising my blood sugar more than I'd like, and of course stopping fat loss in it's tracks.

Hi,

Am late to this party too but had a question.

I too bought a blood glucose monitor and, following almost exactly the info above, I've been tracking my numbers for a few days now. And I have a few questions I was hoping someone could help me with...

A few facts first:

Age - 45
Male
Do Crossfit 3-4 times per week

So far my BG levels have not gone over 108 and are averaging around 91/92, fasting BS is around 86.

The 108 number came 1 hour after a breakfast of uncooked oatmeal, some apple sauce. milk and a handful of almonds - all blended. BUT last night I ate a green salad, chicken and vegetables, with a piece of thin pie crust (!) and 2 lattes (!!) that only gave me a BS  number of 85 after 1 hour and 83 after 3 hours.

Do these numbers sound right? And how 'bad' is a BS level of 108?

Hoping someone can advise...

Duncan

Insulin is meaningless. All the answers are on this site - http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/. Thank you and have a blessed day.

I've been testing stuff after 20 minutes.  The highest things were: whole wheat bread, whole wheat cereal, potatoes, and whole oranges.  But so far I've only had the 'low carb flu' or 'reactive hypoglycemia', and I've actually gained some weight.  But I think I'm on the right track.

Dr. Davis,
If a person has a high fasting number, is the goal to stay at the original number?  I have a fasting glucose number of 83-85, so should my ideal number one hour or so post meal be close to or identical to the start or just below 100?  I'm a little confused.

At this low a starting value, just staying below 100 mg/dl is a great goal.

The "no higher" advice was meant for people who start at 100 mg/dl or higher blood sugar.

Those who can keep tight control of bg with diet are not "cured" of diabetes anymore than those who avoid peanuts are "cured" of peanut allergies.

Minimizing carb content keeps bg lower, yes, and many diabetics can control bg with just that.  Others need meds regardless of how clean their diets are.  

Managing the disease is NOT curing it.  Unless they can pass a GTT, they're still diabetic.