Handy dandy carb index

There are a number of ways to gauge your dietary carbohydrate exposure and its physiologic consequences.

One of my favorite ways is to do fingerstick blood sugars for a one-hour postprandial glucose. I like this because it provides real-time feedback on the glucose consequences of your last meal. This can pinpoint problem areas in your diet.

Another way is to measure small LDL particles. Because small LDL particles are created through a cascade that begins with carbohydrate consumption, measuring them provides an index of both carbohydrate exposure and sensitivity. Drawback: Getting access to the test.

For many people, the most practical and widely available gauge of carbohydrate intake and sensitivity is your hemoglobin A1c, or HbA1c.

HbA1c reflects the previous 60 to 90 days blood sugar fluctuations, since hemoglobin is irreversibly glycated by blood glucose. (Glycation is also the phenomenon responsible for formation of cataracts from glycation of lens proteins, kidney disease, arthritis from glycation of cartilage proteins, atherosclerosis from LDL glycation and components of the arterial wall, and many other conditions.)

HbA1c of a primitive hunter-gatherer foraging for leaves, roots, berries, and hunting for elk, ibex, wild boar, reptiles, and fish: 4.5% or less.

HbA1c of an average American: 5.2% (In the population I see, however, it is typically 5.6%, with many 6.0% and higher.)

HbA1c of diabetics: 6.5% or greater.

Don't be falsely reassured by not having a HbA1c that meets "official" criteria for diabetes. A HbA1c of 5.8%, for example, means that many of the complications suffered by diabetics--kidney disease, heightened risk for atherosclerosis, osteoarthritis, cataracts--are experienced at nearly the same rate as diabetics.

With our wheat-free, cornstarch-free, sugar-free diet, we have been aiming to reduce HbA1c to 4.8% or less, much as if you spent your days tracking wild boar.

Comments (21) -

  • Anonymous

    3/25/2011 3:19:26 AM |

    Dr. Davis,

    Can someone have a good HbA1c but still have an undesirable amount of small particle LDL? ..Like perhaps someone with FHC that has their LDL particles floating around longer in the bloodstream and hence exposed longer to oxidants.

    Thank you.

    John M.

  • Tyler

    3/25/2011 3:51:56 AM |

    I love your blog but I have to clarify on this point. Check out the post by chris kresser: http://chriskresser.com/blog/why-hemoglobin-a1c-is-not-a-reliable-marker/

    a1c is not reliable for many people because of the variation in RBC life length. healthy people's red blood cells may live as over 4 months whereas diabetic's live only as 60 days. This results in vast discrepancies.

    For example my fasting BG averages 77 and postprandial peak is 85-90, but my hemoglobin A1c is 5.7

    This doesn't make sense unless you account for differences in RBC lifetime.

  • Kris @ Health Blog

    3/25/2011 11:45:32 AM |

    I'm wondering what your opinion is of glycation and aging.

    I've been reading that a major part of the aging process might be caused by glycation of proteins in the body, mostly caused by elevated blood sugar.

    Do you believe that practically, one could expect a longer life expectancy to correlate with lower blood sugar levels?

  • Larry

    3/25/2011 12:09:46 PM |

    The other day on the tv show, "The Doctors", they profiled a young woman concerned about her FBG.
    She said that Diabetes ran in her family.
    They did a bloodtest and announced that her FBG was 111.
    The scary part was when they told her that reading was okay.
    With that FBG, one can assume that everytime she eats, her post-prandial FBG is heading into dangerous territory.
    But they told her not to worry.
    She was right about her concern...as Diabetes will continue to run in her family.
    Especially with that advice.

  • Jonathan

    3/25/2011 2:44:03 PM |

    I found Walmart carries a Bayer at home A1c test kit that gives results in 5 minutes.  It came with two test cartridges so I was able to take one when I started lowcarb and another one 4 months later to see how much it came down.  (I came down from 8.3 to 5.2 in 4 months)

  • revelo

    3/25/2011 4:45:55 PM |

    What is HbA1c for those long-lived okinawans with their rice-based diet, or those long-lived cretans with their wheat-based diet?

    Wouldn't a lean healthy body (especially if there is occasional fasting) eventually clean up glycated and otherwise damaged proteins?

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/25/2011 6:22:18 PM |

    Glycation picks on the amino acid valine "wing" on the molecule of haemoglobin's B-chain portion. Aldehydes, both glucose aldehydes and non-glucose ones can become bound to that valine.

    This can occur several ways. Glucose oxidation yields a byproduct, called gly-oxal; this is what most people monitor. In the glyco-lytic pathway called Embden-Meyerhof triose-phosphate drives gly-oxal into the molecule methyl-glyoxal (MG).

    Type 1 diabetics have circulating methyl-glyoxal (MG) levels that are +/- 6 times greater normal. MG is a glycation end product.

    Tyler's comment links to a discussion of fructosamine monitoring. This is from a non-enzyme driven reaction, called Amadori, where fructo-selysine and the fructos-amine 3 kinase cascade generates 3 De-oxy-glucos-ane (3DG); another glycation end product.

    Enzymatic glycation occurs in pathological states. Macrophage activity spins off  the enzyme myelo-peroxidase; this generates hypo-chlorite. Hypo-chlorite pulls in the amino acid serine and then together they cause the formation of certain advanced glycation end-products; namely glyco-aldehyde and glycer-aldehyde.

    Yet another non-enzyme chain of events can generate advanced glycation end products. This is when the molecule per-oxy-nitrite (ONOO-)gets stalled inside the cell and it induces the formation of gly-oxal/gluco-sone/aldehyde molecules that can contribute to glycation.

    ONOO- normally is part of healthy cell signaling. When a metabolic processes is under sustained "stress" it (ONOO-) can't shift the cell function over to what it (the cell) needs to do (in order to adapt and cope). Instead of briefly signalling, signing off and going away ONOO-
    lingers in the cell; a situation that may also be related to ageing.

  • Anonymous

    3/25/2011 7:10:22 PM |

    I wonder if Dr. Davis can comment on situations where carb intake is reasonable and the patient has a decent HBA1c, yet still has higher than normal triglycerides and small LDL?

    My own HBA1c has been in the 4.5-4.6 range, yet my trigs hover around 140-150, and I still have more small LDL than I'd like.

    If restricting carbs doesn't work, D levels normalized, etc. what else could be the cause of higher than optimal triglycerides?

    I know people with HBA1cs in the 5.4+ range, eat many more carbs than I do, yet still have lower trig numbers.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/25/2011 8:58:10 PM |

    Hi Revelo,
    Vitis vinifera leaf inhibits advanced glycation end product (AGE) formation. That is what many cultures, like Crete, eat wrapped around their cereal grain; we call it Grape Leaves in English (ex: stuffed grape leaves, a.k.a. Dolma in Greek).

    Japan researchers (2009?) took 1 kilogram of dried grape leaves in 20 liters of water and stirred it for 3 hours at 80*Celcius. They administered the decoction in various dosages and found it can reduce the AGE of 3DG (3 de-oxy-gluco-sone) and also a marker of AGE in kidney disease, pentosidine, down to 1/5th the level from that study's AGE control levels.

    The same study experimented with Anthemis nobilis using the same extraction technique detailed above. They propose the active ingredient responsible for the AGE inhibition is the compound called chamaemoliside.

    Chamomile is the name of this plant in English; I suspect it is drunk as a tea in Crete. In the range of AGE inhibitors that they tested Chamomile was better acting than any other; grape leaves efficacy came in second.

    Plants studied that inhibit AGE forming, in no particular order of effectiveness may interest you. These are: Crataegus oxyacantha (English = Hawthorn berry), Houttuynia cordata (English = Chameleon plant) and Astragalus membranaceous (English = Astragalus). Chameleon plant is a regular condiment used in Vietnamese and some south-east asian food; it smells kind of "fishy".

  • revelo

    3/25/2011 9:02:19 PM |

    According to Steven Gundry MD, it is MEAT which is the primary cause of AGE's. (He doesn't cite any references for this in his "Diet Evolution" book.) He recommends Atkin's style low-carb/high-protein to lose weight, then low-fat (15% of calories from fat) as the maintenance diet. He is not too keen on grains, tubers or fruit, but rather emphasizes green vegetables.

  • Tyler

    3/25/2011 9:50:41 PM |

    Thanks for the nice explanations Might-o'chondri-AL

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/25/2011 10:46:23 PM |

    Diabetic nephro-pathy (ie: kidney complication), and kidney disease have elevated AGE. These are monitored as pento-sidine, gly-oxal, methyl-gly-oxal and 3 de-oxy-gluco-sane; which the body tries to excrete as carbonyly compounds.

    Carbonyl compounds are hard to get through the kidney filters and cause an increase in uric uremia, which can be toxic. Too many carbonyls can cause, the so called, "carbonyl stress" of diabetic nephro-pathy.

    Diabetic patients' kidneys eventually can't excrete enough sodium (Na); and that contributes to the high blood pressure (hyper-tension) diabetics tend to suffer from.

    Ketones merit mentioning too. One of the markers for AGE in the kidneys is N-carb-oxy-ethl-lysine; which may (or may not) be a side effect of ketones. Type 1 diabetics do show elevated ketone levels incidently.

    I am not able to offer any perspective on ketogenic diets and AGE however. However, vitamin C is known to decrease ketone bodies. (In the previous post, "Battery acid ...", more
    diabetic responses to vitamin C appears among the comments.)

  • Anonymous

    3/26/2011 4:46:17 AM |

    I've been eating low-carb (basically paleo) for the last 4-5 mo and just got my lipid panel results.  They sky-rocketed.

    Cholesterol 300
      
    Triglyceride 150  
        
    HDL          33
        
    LDL             237


    Every number got worse.  The part that really sucks, is that the diet makes me feel great and nearly all my body fat is gone.  I'm 37, 5'11, 180 lbs and probably about 9% body fat.  Now I'm wondering what kind of trade-off I'm making.  Any thoughts, doc?

  • Peter

    3/26/2011 12:55:22 PM |

    Testing different foods one hour after meals, it seems like a good rule of thumb for me is that each ounce of carbs raises my blood sugar about 10 mg,and that the kind of carb doesn't matter nearly as much as the quantity.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/26/2011 6:31:09 PM |

    Paradoxical low carb yet relatively high HbA1c & higher carb but relatively lower HbA1c is reported by Annon. Doc assuredly deals with cases like these and has to resolve their enigma one by one.  

    The gene HFE (human hemochromatosis protein, nicknamed High Fe  where iron = Fe)can have a variation (reference code = HFE rs1800562). This variation is seen in +/- 5% of Caucasians, but is not found in East Asian nor African genes.

    More hemoglobin is in circulation for those having this HFE genetic variation. In this case, the same amount of blood sugar that can contribute to glycation of hemoglobin has more hemoglobin surfaces to glycate. Think of it as the glycation has to spread itself thin; the dilution of it's effect makes the % of Hb1Ac less (ie: lower Hb1Ac % measured in the blood sample).

    On the other hand, genetic variation rs855791 of the gene TMPRSS6 (trans-membrane protease, serine 6)is implicated in anemia. In these individuals Hb1Ac readings range higher; there is less hemoglobin relative to the glycation potential in their blood stream. Think of it as the relatively low proportion of hemoglobin which has to bear all the glycation burden
    (ie: Hb1Ac % is higher in their blood sample).

    Anemic (hemolytic) tendency is also driven by variation of gene HK1 (hexo-kinase 1). This enzyme modulates how glucose inside the cell goes through  it's processing pathways.

    This gene (HK1) codes for the unique iso-form of erythrocytes; erythrocyte configuration can figure in to low hemoglobin. In other words it is also a factor in high Hb1Ac readings; glycation potential in the blood over burdens the limited amount of hemoglobin around.

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/26/2011 6:34:23 PM |

    In response to several questions about the potential disconnect between small LDL/triglycerides and HbA1c: Yes, there are people in which one measure is more resistant. It varies based on the mix of underlying genetic predispositions, so it's hard to generalize.


    Might-o'-chondri-AL--

    Great discussion. Thanks, as always. You bring an incredibly sophisticated perspective!

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/26/2011 6:35:48 PM |

    Jonathan--

    Spectacular! And within an unusually brief timeline for HbA1c.


    Revelo--

    Might-o'chondri-AL is referring to endogenous glycation. You are citing a discussion about exogenous glycation, two separate phenomena.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/27/2011 1:31:59 AM |

    Might Jenny's observation and Nigel's study reference be reconciled somewhat ? I'll tag on my disclaimer of being unqualified to judge low carb or specific diets; since I've never struggled with weight or diabetes, and am not a doctor.

    The study Nigel linked was done with all Kuwaiti subjects. In that country co-sanguinity in marriage is practised by +/- 54.3 % of Kuwaitis. And 1 in 5 are reported to be diabetic.

    The data is very admirable; my suggestion is that the data trend may not exactly transfer to a modern Caucasian population; which is essentially interbred from migration and war (rape). This may be why Jenny sees a +/- 6 month plateau among her respondents and the co-sanguine Kuwaitis saw changes continue for a year +.

    Genetic poly-morphisms influence fasting glucose (GCK, G6PC2 and MTNR1B), are implicated in Hb1Ac, triglyceride levels, HDL levels & so on. That said, I personally would try the low carb approach if I was diabetic.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/27/2011 1:32:47 AM |

    oops posted this in wrong thread

  • Anonymous

    3/27/2011 3:12:44 AM |

    Re: Anonymous with Cholesterol 300,  Triglycerides 150,  HDL 33 ...

    Suggest you try a technique many dieabetics find helpful to understand food consumption influence on their blood sugar profile,"eating to your meter".
    For a few days, record your blood sugar level immediately before eating a "normal" meal, and then after the meal get 1-hour and 2-hour post-meal blood sugar readings. Separate meals by at least 4 hours. Concentrate on monitoring your main meals and ignore snacking for the first go around. Better however, if you can actually avoid all snaking during period of the testing. Also you will want to add to your journal the foods, ammount consumed, and time it was consumed. If post-meal blood sugar values are high, then to determine a pattern folllowing a meal do a series of hourly post-meal readings until you reach 85 mg/dL or so. As a graph, these results should be helpful to you. Expect that the results will be revealing to you with unexpected high blood sugar values even after following a paleo diet. And if so, it does mean that paleo is not for you, only that you need to more discriminating in what and how much you actually consume.

    I would be interested in hearing about your findings. By the way, you did not mention the blood glucose or HbA1c results of your recent lab tests.

    My regards and good luck ... spo

    BTW: practice good technique with the finger sticks. Do a quick but good hand wash using soap and a warm water rinse prior to a stick. Dry hands well. Dont squeeze hard at the site to encourage blood flow. The original stick should be sufficent to raise a drop of blood for the test strip. Using alcohol swabs and changing out lancets is not necessry when only working on youtself. Keep the test strip vial tightly closed other then when removing the current test strip. If you encounter an "extreme" value, retest for confirmation but clean hands again prior to the retest. My experiences regarding unexpected readings seems to usually invovle hand and finger contamination of some form.

    Finally, on Amazon.com I am able to purchase unexpired test strips in 50 strip lots for my old AcuCheK Confort Curve meter for less than $0.16 or so a strip and often with free shipping. You just have to broswe around a bit.

  • Jonathan

    3/30/2011 2:47:32 PM |

    @ Anonymous with 300 TC
    I would say it could possibly be your liver cleaning itself out (it could have been getting fatty).  The higher Trig might be a sign you are getting too many carbs from somewhere (at least till your sugar stores empty some and insulin sensitivity goes back up) but it could be the liver cleaning out as well.  I think HyperLipid posted something about this once.

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Bosom buddies

Bosom buddies

Male breast reduction surgery is a booming business. While most industries are in a downward tailspin, breast reduction surgery in men is growing at double-digit rates.

Other efforts, some legitimate, some not, are also cropping up, all intended to help men deal with this embarassing problem:

Exercise programs to reduce male breast size.

Liposuction--Not just for the belly!

Plastic surgery

Gynexin--a supplement that purportedly reduces male breast size.

Conventional medical treatment also includes estrogen blocking drugs, the same ones used to treat breast cancer, drugs like tamoxifen. There's even clothing intended to make breasts less obvious.


While male breast enlargement--"gynecomastia"--can occasionally occur due to rare endocrinologic problems, such as high prolactin hormone levels (hyperprolactinemia) or somewhat more commonly as failed testosterone production (hypogonadism), the vast majority of men who suffer with this problem simply have high estrogen levels.

Makes sense: Women develop larger breasts during development mostly due to increased levels of estrogen. A parallel situation in men likewise stimulates breast tissue.

So where does the excess estrogen come from?

Visceral fat converts testosterone to estrogen. Men with excess visceral fat therefore develop low levels of testosterone and high levels of estrogen. Estrogen levels can, in fact, be substantially higher compared to slender males.

So what foods cause the accumulation of visceral fat and, thereby, increased estrogen and decreased testosterone?

Foods that increase blood glucose and insulin to the greatest degree are the foods that begin this cascade. The common foods that increase blood sugar the most? Here's a list, starting with most blood glucose-insulin provoke at the top, least at the bottom:

Gluten-free foods (dried, pulverized cornstarch, rice starch, potato starch, tapioca starch)
Whole wheat bread
Sucrose
Milky Way bars
Snickers bars

So the whole wheat sandwiches you've been eating increase blood sugar and insulin, leading to visceral fat. (And, yes, whole wheat bread increases blood sugar higher than Milky Way bars and Snickers bars.) The more visceral fat grows, the more resistant to the effects of insulin you become, further escalating blood sugar. Estrogen increases, testosterone drops, mammary gland tissue grows, normal male breasts grow to B- or C-cup size.

Yet again, an entire industry is growing from the unintended consequence of conventional advice. In this instance, the advice to "eat more healthy whole grains" leads to this booming industry of male breast reduction efforts from surgery to medications to clothing. The REAL solution: Eliminate the foods that start the process in the first place.

Comments (22) -

  • Sara

    10/8/2010 6:54:43 PM |

    Man-boobs: Another reason to lay off the Doritos.

  • Anonymous

    10/8/2010 7:28:09 PM |

    I'm usually the first to say, "Hoooray for boobies!" Maybe not this time though.

    I've known about man-boobs for a while and I have noticed many thinner guys having them too. It makes me wonder how much fat is inside that that slimmer body.

    What does a man do with their own boobs though?  Hmm... a new potential market!

    --

  • Anonymous

    10/8/2010 7:35:42 PM |

    not just grains.. also too much fruits and fruit juices.

    off topic Q: 47y male, very busy, but otherwise fit and lean, on paleo since a few months, has CRP=0, A1c=5.5, homocysteine=11, TSH=3.4, cholesterin 4.1mmol. low vitamin D (about to be remedied). his father has some bypasses. do you think to stay low-carb'ish paleo is sufficient here, or should he do something about his TSH and homocysteine (it's my brother). can this be caused by drinking 8-10 coffees a day lol? thanks!

  • Anand Srivastava

    10/8/2010 7:37:51 PM |

    Soy also contains a lot of phytoestrogens. Another thing to get rid of.

  • Againstthegrain

    10/8/2010 8:48:55 PM |

    Ditch flax, too.  

    Hmmm, is the rate of male breast cancer rising, too I wonder?

  • Anonymous

    10/9/2010 3:18:21 AM |

    not just for men
    heaps of my female patients want breast reduction surgery
    I tell them to start eating green veges and more fish, and kill the carbs, but most would prefer the surgery because the healthy option is too hard!  go figure

  • Anonymous

    10/9/2010 4:13:52 AM |

    the sad thing is for some of us even when we lose the weight, or the vast majority of the weight, the male breasts still don't go away. I have my gynecomastia surgery schedule for november....it's been a dream of mine for several years and i've been saving for it for a long time.

  • Garth Huckabay

    10/9/2010 11:31:10 AM |

    I read that drinking milk can cause a substantial insulin response even greater than that of a snickers bar?  There are a whole lot of people out there addicted to milk.  Telling them they shouldn't eat bread and pasta mortifies but adding dairy to the equation puts them right over the top Smile

  • Me

    10/9/2010 3:03:19 PM |

    Not to split hairs, but glycemic load, which is what raises blood insulin,  is an entirely dose-dependent variable.

    According  to Nutritiondata. com, a Snickers bar comes in three sizes.

    "Fun size" (15g) GL of 5
    I bar (2 oz)  GL of  57
    I king size bar (4 oz) GL of 113

    Whole wheat bread, commercially prepared
    1 slice: GL of 5

    So, yes if you had two slices of WW bread, you've doubled the amount of a fun-size Snicker.  But eat the big Snickers and you are way, way over that.

    The devil is in the details.

  • Anonymous

    10/10/2010 12:06:06 AM |

    Great post.  I'm sorry it wasn't there 2 years ago when I was working with a male client who was in despair about the man boobs.

    Nina

  • Larry

    10/10/2010 1:54:24 AM |

    Could low Testosterone blood levels in the male population be the cause of this ?
    There's a detailed article on this matter in the June 2010 LEF magazine.
    The article shows that this deficiency is in epidemic numbers.

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/10/2010 12:43:39 PM |

    Hi, Me--

    Absolutely correct.

    However, you will find that, of the foods listed, ALL increase blood glucose not a little, but a lot. Drawing distinctions among them and declaring one is better is like telling people that Marlboros are bad for you and Salems are better. Therefore, smoke more Salems.

    It's that bad.

  • CarbSane

    10/10/2010 1:09:27 PM |

    I'm curious about your statement that visceral fat converts testosterone to estrogen --> the man boobies.

    There's the implication then that visceral fat leads to low testosterone.

    This study would indicate that the direction of causation may be the other way around.  Visceral and total fat were measured in 110 Japanese-American men and measured again 7.5 years later.  Those with low testosterone levels at the beginning of the study had increased visceral fat.  

    Visceral fat produces estrogen and that can lead to man boobies.

    So lowT --> belly --> boobs seems a more likely scenario.  

    I'm not sure we can look to a booming plastic surgery business for male breast reduction as being indicative of some sort of dietary induced increase in the incidence of man boobs.  Undergoing the knife has become increasingly popular for all sorts of procedures for men.

    I would also add anecdotal evidence that many of the overweight men I know with this problem also happen to carry more weight in their butts, legs and subQ belly rather than sporting the "pot-belly".

  • Kevin

    10/10/2010 6:59:17 PM |

    After being diagnosed with BPH I specifically looked for a remedy other than 5-alpha reductase inhibitors.  I found and used beta-sitosterol for nearly a year.  Eventually I noticed nipple sensitivity.  I read it's an early symtom of gynecomastia.  Then I found that beta-sitosterol acts as a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor.  I quit using the medication about six weeks ago and now have significantly less sensitivity.  But the tradeoff is now I'm back to nocturia.  

    kevin

  • vitamin c

    10/12/2010 2:46:53 AM |

    It really looks awful for a man to have boobies and that's one that turns me off. I don't want to be with a man be with bigger boobs than I am. Is soya included in the list of food to be avoided?

  • Kathryn

    10/12/2010 6:53:40 AM |

    And soy, soy, soy.  It is being promoted as a "health food" but most of it is genetically modified (unless organic) & all of it is high in plant estrogens.  NOT good for anyone:  women, men, developing children. (Unless it is fermented, not typical.) What is the formula most commonly used for babies?  Soy & lots of sugar.  

    Bad, bad stuff.

  • buy viagra online

    10/12/2010 9:49:38 AM |

    Very interesting Blog.



    Smith Alancli

  • renegadediabetic

    10/12/2010 3:19:03 PM |

    I too would add soy to the list.  All these "healthy" foods aren't so healthy.  They are being promoted as "healthy" because they make $$$$ for big processed food.

    I once saw an ad from PCRM telling men to go veg to reduce man boobs.  However, going veg would just mean more soy and insulin-dirupting foods, which would make the problem worse.

  • Anonymous

    10/12/2010 4:43:37 PM |

    Thank you so much for this info. My family has been gluten free for several years, but I still react to GF breads. Most of our dietary decisions have come about through observing how we react to particular foods, even when we don't understand *why*. I've been avoiding "GF" breads because I react so badly to them . . . and now I know why. Thanks for the verification.

  • Anonymous

    10/27/2010 5:16:16 PM |

    Men who are taking the BP med sprionolactone (trade name Aldactone) can sometimes experience gynecomastia. It's an uncommon, but well-known side effect of some drugs, and not always just a function of food intake or exercise (or lack thereof).

  • Rogue Dietitian

    11/6/2010 10:58:22 PM |

    You forgot one VERY important thing on your list:

    ALCOHOL!

    Ethanol promotes aromatase converting testosterone to estrogen. Also, lupulin in hops is a potent phytoestrogen making beer a double whammy.

    I would also like to add that brassica vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, kale, cabbage, Brussels sprouts, etc) are rich in indole-3-carbinol and diindoylemethane which are wonderfully potent anti-estrogenic molecules.

  • bactrim

    11/7/2010 2:11:37 PM |

    If you are clever you always can money from anywhere or from nothing Smile

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