Near-death experience with nattokinase

This is a true story that I personally witnessed.

A 60-some year old man heard that nattokinase "thinned the blood." So he had been taking it for the past 6 months.

One week before he came to see me, he abruptly became quite breathless. He was unable to walk more than 20 feet or bend over to tie his shoes due to the breathlessness.

He came to see me in the office. I was alarmed by how breathless he was without signs of heart failure or other obvious explanation. I sent him for an immediate CT pulmonary angiogram. Within 30 minutes, we had the diagnosis: a large "saddle" pulmonary embolus, meaning a large blood clot that straddled the right and left main pulmonary arteries. One wrong move and . . . bang! He would have been dead within a couple of minutes, since a large clot can completely occlude the large arteries feeding the lung, essentially corking any blood circuiting through the lungs and back to the left side of the heart. (Causing, incidentally, electromechanical dissociation, in which the heart keeps beating for a few minutes but no blood is being pumped. CPR can keep you alive for a few minutes, then it's over.)

When I advised the patient of the diagnosis (after initiating the REAL anticoagulants), he said, "But I was taking nattokinase!"

Exactly. Blood clots are no laughing matter. They are potentially fatal events. Betting your life on some company's advertisement is nothing short of foolish.

Anyone who reads The Heart Scan Blog knows that I am an avid supporter of nutritional supplements. I even write articles and consult for the supplement industry. But I truly despise hearing unfounded marketing claims that some supplement companies will make in the pursuit of a fast buck.

There is no doubt that we need better, safer methods to deal with dangerous blood clots, whether in the lung, pelvis, or other areas. But, before anyone takes a leap based on the extravagant marketing claims made by a supplement manufacturer, you want to be damn sure there are real data--not marketing claims, REAL data--before you use something like nattokinase in place of a proven therapy.

Don't confuse the very interesting, though unpalatable, natto with nattokinase. Natto contains vitamin K2 and some other interesting compounds, including nattokinase.

Comments (22) -

  • Anonymous

    5/15/2010 10:41:58 PM |

    Interesting that your warning about nattokinese is FOLLOWED immediately by an advertisement for.... nattokinase extracts!

  • mongander

    5/16/2010 1:29:07 AM |

    Actually most nattokinase does not contain vitamin K2.  When nattokinase is extracted from natto, the K2 is separated and sold as another profitable byproduct.

  • Anonymous

    5/16/2010 1:29:07 AM |

    Wait a minute though! Was there any indication that he needed a real blood thinner before his clot? Maybe he was just taking it like a daily aspirin to "thin the blood" not for therapeutic blood anticoagulation. His clot was unfortunate but probably could have occurred with a cardiologist sactioned baby aspirin.

  • Dr. William Davis

    5/16/2010 1:07:24 PM |

    Anon--

    He was taking aspirin, as well.

    However, aspirin does NOT prevent deep vein thromboses that lead to pulmonary emboli, regardless of dose. Aspirin is a platelet-inhibitor, not a true "blood thinner" that works by way of clotting proteins.

  • sfr

    5/16/2010 2:18:50 PM |

    Was he using nattokinase as an excuse not to take his warfarin, or something like that? Otherwise it seems very unlikely that the nattokinase had anything to do with the clot. If anything, I'd worry about nattokinase causing bleeds, not clots.

  • Anonymous

    5/16/2010 5:58:24 PM |

    Curious if you ever recommend pycnogenol in cases where there is a risk of DVT? I believe there is at least one study showing a reduced risk of DVT in those who took pycnogenol.

    I'm not saying it's better than anti-coagulants, but it may be better than aspirin.

  • Myron

    5/16/2010 6:08:01 PM |

    Real anti-coagulants?  Like the red clover extract coumadin?  Patients on coumadin even with careful control often suffer excessive bleeding or more clots and strokes.    
    I guess the point is that clotting control is very difficult and that the number one drug is a natural medicine, herbal extract.

  • Anonymous

    5/16/2010 11:25:24 PM |

    One time, I was at a local vitamin shop when I saw that the supplement I was thinking about buying contained nattokinase.  Having read your blog and knowing what you think of nattokinase, I put the product back on the shelf.  The proprietor of the shop asked me why I did not want that supplement, because in his opinon it was a very good product.  I said that I did not want to take anything with nattokinase in it, and he said, "What do you have against nattokinase?"  I didn't bother to explain myself to him, figuring that I would just be wasting my breath.

  • Eric

    5/17/2010 1:37:14 AM |

    What is your opinion about doing higher dose mixed tocopherols, which do work on the clotting cascade. Or garlic and omegas which decrease platelet aggregation. What is your stand on normalizing your vitamin K content and then titrating your dosage of coumadin up to theraputic INR. As far as the nattokinase is concerned, do you like any of that style of enzyme? lumbokinase, serrapeptase. Although they don't have any effect on INR they should have an affect on FDPs

  • Paul

    5/17/2010 3:40:36 AM |

    That title is misleading.  People have been known to have near death cardiac events while taking fish oil, vitamin D3, and high dose niacin too.

    As well, on rare occasion, people have been known to have a recurrent DVT and/or PE while on warfarin therapy, even with an INR as high as 2.5.  Therefore, does that mean warfarin is an ineffective anticoagulant?  Of course not.

    This whole blog is about how we as individuals need to take control of our own health.  That just because we're taking a therapeutic medication or supplement, it does not therefore absolve ourselves from further investing in a life style that is proven to lower risk factors that may cause catastrophic health events.  

    I totally agree that some of the marketing claims made concerning nattokinase are inflated and frankly, unbelievable - particularly about its capabilities as a thrombolysis.  And I agree that if your doctor advices that you need heprin or warfarin therapy in order to prevent a catastrophic health event, you certainly need to heed that advice.

    But, count me down as someone who has extensively studied this subject and is still open to the possibility that nattokinase may contain some attributes in the prevention of venus thrombosis from a novel approach that needs further clinical investigation.

  • Dave

    5/17/2010 3:57:54 PM |

    Dr. Davis,

    I wouldn't be so quick to blast nattokinase because of this isolated incident or lack of research.

    Nattokinase is a "mild" blood thinner. Taking it once a day will not do more than relieve inflammation and slightly improve a person's circulation.

    A person would have to take it every 4 times a day (800 IU) on an empty stomach for if he desires a therapeutic effect. I would be curious if this patient of yours even took 200 IU per day (because a lot of products don't even contain that much).

    I have personally witnessed an improvement in circulation after taking nattokinase.

  • Dave

    5/17/2010 4:03:09 PM |

    I would like to add one more thing...

    I'm sure you have had experience with patients who took 400 IU of vitamin D in tablet form, and did not see any results after six months either. Was it because vitamin D is a worthless supplement, and should not be used?

  • Dave

    5/17/2010 4:42:33 PM |

    Sorry, I was misspoke about the dosage. Nattokinase is measured in fibrinolysis units (FU), not IU, and the effective dose ranges anywhere from 2,000-8000 FU per day.

    Also, here's actual scientific research (albeit small), not marketing hype, on nattokinase.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19358933

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18971533

  • StephenB

    5/17/2010 6:40:37 PM |

    I've like the taste of natto from the moment I tried it. I am, however, a bit weird. ;)

  • Aaron

    5/17/2010 8:19:54 PM |

    Dr. Davis -- my question here is, could the nattokinase cause the blood clot (doesn't seem the be the case)?  Are you saying that it didn't matter that he was taking nattokinese because it doesn't reach the bloodstream to clear clots (so he would of had the clot anyway)

    Secondly, if he was taking nattokinese that had vitamin K2 <--- is it possible that increases in K2 might cause abnormal blood cloting?

  • Dr. William Davis

    5/17/2010 9:44:34 PM |

    Vitamin K2 does not cause blood clotting any more than topping up your gas tank makes your car go faster.

    Whether nattokinase has other effects is not my point. My concern is that people frequently ask if they should treat their DVT or pulmonary embolus with nattokinase. This is a death sentence. It should NOT be used for a such a purpose unless there were a large treatment trial proving equivalence or superiority to existing therapies.

  • Paul

    5/18/2010 12:50:58 AM |

    Eric,

    High dose mixed tocopherols use the same mechanisms as Wafarin/Coumadin.  They block the reabsorption of vitamin-K in the liver.  Vitamin-K is necessary for the liver to synthesize and release clotting proteins in the blood.  Warfarin/Coumadin is much, much more consistent than tocopherols in maintaining vitamin-K malabsorption and a safely prescribed INR range.  

    Titrating a Warfarin/Coumadin dosage never made sense to me. It is not toxic other than causing vitamin-K deficiency. What difference does it make if the dosage is 20 mg or 20 mcg to maintain a therapeutic INR?  Your liver will need to be equally deficient in vitamin-K no matter how you caused the deficiency.

    Garlic, ginger, ginkgo, curcumin, n-3, aspirin, N-acetylcysteine, Plavix, and yes tocopherols too all are anti-platelet agents.   They are effective at preventing arterial thrombosis, where anticoagulants have little effect. Conversely, anticoagulants are effective at preventing venous thrombosis, where anti-platelet agents (unfortunately) have little effect.

  • Michaela

    5/18/2010 7:36:40 AM |

    I'm giving my son nattokinase, one tablet daily and he also takes Vitamin K2. He has not been prescribed blood thinners, only aspirin which I stopped many months ago.
    Are you warning of not replacing prescribed blood thinners with natural therapies?
    If blood thinners have not been prescribed, is it of benefit to supplement with nattokinase?

  • rob_scheuneman

    5/18/2010 11:31:00 PM |

    Hi Dr. Davis

    I was wondering if you could help me with something.

    I've been monitoring my blood glucose recently with a basic monitor, and my readings would suggest that I am on the verge of impaired glucose tolerance, but not quite there yet.

    I was reading about continuous glucose monitoring systems. I would love to have on if these to more thoroughly monitor my blood glucose, but every model out there requires a prescription to obtain one. I don't understand this, because they are not dangerous in any way.

    Do you know of any way a non diabetic can purchase one of these?

    Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

    Rob

  • Anonymous

    9/25/2010 9:36:39 PM |

    Dr. Davis, i am a 45 year old female who recently started taking Lovasa for high triglycerides , i am also on garlic tabs and one baby asprin per day . Is is safe to replace the garlic and asprin with one tab of Natto- K per day and is it safe to take with Lovasa? I am about 20 lbs overweight do not drink or smoke and swim and or walk 3 days per week. i am genetically predisposed to high triglycerides but never had a problem until i gained the weight. Until i get the weight off i am trying a more natural approach. Help!

  • Kelly D

    8/10/2013 3:24:08 AM |

    Acta Haematol. 2010;124(4):218-24. doi: 10.1159/000321518. Epub 2010 Nov 13.

    In vivo evaluation method of the effect of nattokinase on carrageenan-induced tail thrombosis in a rat model.
    Kamiya S, Hagimori M, Ogasawara M, Arakawa M.
    Source
    Nagasaki International University, Sasebo, Japan. kamiya@niu.ac.jp

    Abstract
    Thrombosis is characterized by congenital and acquired procatarxis. Nattokinase inhibits thrombus formation in vitro. However, in vivo evaluation of the therapeutic efficacy of nattokinase against thrombosis remains to be conducted. Subcutaneous nattokinase injections of 1 or 2 mg/ml were administered to the tails of rats. Subsequently, κ-carrageenan was intravenously administered to the tails at 12 h after nattokinase injections. The mean length of the infarcted regions in the tails of rats was significantly shorter in rats administered 2 mg/ml of nattokinase than those in control rats. Nattokinase exhibited significant prophylactic antithrombotic effects. Previously, the in vitro efficacy of nattokinase against thrombosis had been reported; now our study has revealed the in vivo efficacy of nattokinase against thrombosis.

    PMID: 21071931

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Homegrown osteoporosis prevention and reversal

Homegrown osteoporosis prevention and reversal

I don't like to stray too far off course from discussions of heart disease and related issues in this blog. But the question of bone health comes up so often that I thought I'd discuss the strategies available to everybody to stop, even reverse, osteoporosis.

Coronary atherosclerotic plaque and bone health are intimately interwoven. People who have coronary plaque usually have osteoporosis; people who have osteoporosis usually have coronary plaque. (The association is strongest in females.) The worse the osteoporosis, the greater the quantity of coronary plaque, and vice versa. The two seemingly unconnected conditions share common causes and thereby respond to similar treatments.

Incredibly, rarely will your doctor tell you about these strategies. Your doctor orders a bone density test, the value shows osteopenia or osteoporosis, and a drug like Fosamax or Boniva is prescribed. As many people are learning, drugs like this can be associated with severe side-effects, such as jaw necrosis (death of the jaw bone), a dangerous and disfiguring condition that leads to loss of teeth and disfigurement, followed by reconstructive surgery of the jaw and face. These are not trivial effects.

Note that drugs are approved by the FDA based on assessment of efficacy and safety, NOT proven equivalence or superiority to natural treatments.

In order of importance (greatest to least), here are strategies that I believe are important to regain or maintain bone health. Indeed, I have seen many women increase bone density using these strategies . . . without drugs of any sort.

1) Vitamin D restoration--Vitamin D is the most important control factor over bone calcium metabolism, as well as parathyroid function. As readers of this blog already know, gelcap forms of vitamin D work best, aiming for a 25-hydroxy vitamin level of 60-70 ng/ml. This usually requires 6000 units per day, though there is great individual variation in need.

2) Vitamin K2--If you lived in Japan, you would be prescribed vitamin K2. While it's odd that K2 is a "drug" in Japan, it means that it enjoys the validation required for approval through their FDA-equivalent. Prescription K2 (as MK-4 or menatetranone) at doses of 15,000-45,000 mcg per day (15-45 mg), improves bone architecture, even when administered by itself. However, K2 works best when part of a broader program of bone health. I advise 1000 mcg per day, preferably a mixture of the short-acting MK-4 and long-acting MK-7. (Emerging data measuring bone resorption markers suggest that lower doses may work nearly as well as the high-dose prescription.)

3) Magnesium--I generally advise supplementation with the well-absorbed forms, magnesium glycinate (400 mg twice per day) or magnesium malate (1200 mg twice per day). Because they are well-absorbed, they are least likely to lead to diarrhea (as magnesium oxide commonly does).

4) Alkaline potassium salts--Potassium as the bicarbonate or the citrate, i.e., alkalinizing forms, are wonderfully effective for preservation or reversal of bone density. Because potassium in large doses is potentially fatal, over-the-counter supplements contain only 99 mg potassium per capsule. I have patients take two capsules twice per day, provided kidney function is normal and there is no history of high potassium.

5) An alkalinizing diet--Animal products are acidic, vegetables and fruits are alkaline. Put them together and you should obtain a slightly net alkaline body pH that preserves bone health. Throw grains like wheat, carbonated soft drinks, or other acids into the mix and you shift the pH balance towards net acid. This powerfully erodes bone. Therefore, avoid grains and never consume carbonated soft drinks. (Readers of this blog know that "healthy, whole grains" should be included in the list of Scams of the Century, along with Bernie Madoff and mortgage-backed securities.)

6) Strength training--Bone density follows muscle mass. Restoring youthful muscle mass with strength training can increase bone density over time. The time and energy needs are modest, e.g., 20 minutes twice per week.

Note that calcium may or may not be on the list. If on the list at all, it is dead last. When vitamin D has been restored, intestinal absorption of calcium is as much as quadrupled. The era of force-feeding high-doses of calcium are long-gone. In fact, calcium supplementation in the age of vitamin D can lead to abnormal high calcium blood levels and increased heart attack risk.

These are benign and easily incorporated strategies. They are also inexpensive. I challenge any drug to match or exceed the benefits of this combination of strategies. Keep in mind that strategies like vitamin D restoration provide an extensive panel of health benefits that range far beyond bone health, an effect definitely NOT shared by prescription drugs.

Comments (58) -

  • Luming Zhou

    9/1/2010 5:09:06 AM |

    Great article. I especially liked the emphasis on potassium poisoning. This is no joke.

    I nearly died from potassium poisoning. I bought 99mg supplements and I once took several a day, along many pounds of potatoes. I then suffered from hyperventilation, muscle cramps, tingling on my extremities, and delirium. I was on a salt restricted diet back then. That was an idiotic move. But I saved myself by adding back salt to my diet.

    I don't particularly like potassium supplementation. If I overdosed potassium on potatoes, then potatoes will taste disgusting to me. But if I relied on supplementation, then I might overdose because I can't taste it.

    Hope this helps.

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 11:23:22 AM |

    on the spot again! any role of GMOs here ?

  • Anne

    9/1/2010 1:06:10 PM |

    What about Strontium as part of the drive to reverse established osteoporosis ? Strontium Ranelate is prescribed in the UK as an alternative to Fosamax or Boniva type drugs.

    I have osteoporosis but I do not have any coronary atherosclerotic plaque I'm happy to say. I had scan to show my coronary arteries are clear.

    I take a high dose vitamin D - current 25(OH)D is 78 ng/ml (195 nmol/L) and do strength training Smile  Can't get vitamin K2 but eat an alkalizing diet with lots of veggies high in K such as kale which, I understand help intestinal bacteria make K2.

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 1:23:44 PM |

    I jumped down from my kids trampoline back in 2003 with immense pain.  I thought I had jarred my back but after an x-ray, it turns out I had crushed 3 vertebra. The year before, I had an angiogram after suffering shortness of breath and jaw pains on moderate exercise. Surgeon told me he could not stent because the artery was fully blocked. the good news was it had happened over time so collateral had formed, so no heart attack. My recovery has been more due to self education and action than the medical establishment.

    For some time I still had occasional angina, but for the last 18months I have been taking K2 together with VitaminD3, fish oil and Niacin. I have no angina, no muscle aches (ok, maybe that was the statin), bike long distances, kayak, hike....yada yada.

    This is what has worked for me.  I sincerely hope people with either low bone density or plaque problems give the K2/D3 route a try.

  • Kathy

    9/1/2010 2:13:32 PM |

    I sure would LOVE for Dr. Davis
    to weigh in on Strontium.  I took
    Strontium 680 MG following everything I learned about it and had a nice improvement in my Bone Density.  However, my primary care doc insisted on a strontium level of my blood and of course it was off the wall, and
    my doc asked me to discontinue because there have never really been any long term trials on it.  I take D as Dr. Davis suggests, and only half the calcium I used to as he suggests and fish oil etc.  Will add K too!  Kathy

  • Kathy

    9/1/2010 2:18:49 PM |

    PS  As per Doctor Davis instructions, I too had a heart scan and had
    Zero plaque.  I am 61 years old and
    have improved from Osteoporosis to
    Osteopenia in my bone density, mostly from the strontium.....Kathy

  • Jessica

    9/1/2010 2:19:25 PM |

    Whenever I see Sally Field's Boniva commericals on TV in which she proclaims, "I thought taking Vitamin D and calcium were enough to stop my bone loss, come to find out, they weren't enough," I can't help but ask (aloud), "yea? How much D were you taking?"

    I get embarrassed for her.

    Docs in our area (FPs and specialists), while now starting to pay more attention to Vitamin D, still take shots at us for recommending Vitamin D over fosomax, boniva, etc. They feel it's unethical.

    We press right on, though.

  • Kathy

    9/1/2010 2:22:09 PM |

    @ Jessica, I truly want to throw something at the TV when I see her
    commercials!  LOL
    As "they say"
    KNOWLEDGE is POWER!  Kathy

  • malpaz

    9/1/2010 2:49:06 PM |

    "Coronary atherosclerotic plaque and bone health are intimately interwoven. People who have coronary plaque usually have osteoporosis; people who have osteoporosis usually have coronary plaque. (The association is strongest in females.) The worse the osteoporosis, the greater the quantity of coronary plaque, and vice versa. The two seemingly unconnected conditions share common causes and thereby respond to similar treatments. "


    mmmkay you just scared the lving bee--geeez out of me. i have osteoporosis and am only 24 yrs old, recovering anorexic now weight restored Smile

    i do have joint bone pain and problms however. i do take D, mag and my K is way over 100% DV eveyday(gimme my greens). not sure where my potassium falls

    so is a hih fat high meat diet goodfor osteoporosis or not? i am no very 'schooled' about acid-alkaline stuff

  • malpaz

    9/1/2010 2:49:43 PM |

    "Coronary atherosclerotic plaque and bone health are intimately interwoven. People who have coronary plaque usually have osteoporosis; people who have osteoporosis usually have coronary plaque. (The association is strongest in females.) The worse the osteoporosis, the greater the quantity of coronary plaque, and vice versa. The two seemingly unconnected conditions share common causes and thereby respond to similar treatments. "


    mmmkay you just scared the lving bee--geeez out of me. i have osteoporosis and am only 24 yrs old, recovering anorexic now weight restored Smile

    i do have joint bone pain and problms however. i do take D, mag and my K is way over 100% DV eveyday(gimme my greens). not sure where my potassium falls

    so is a hih fat high meat diet goodfor osteoporosis or not? i am no very 'schooled' about acid-alkaline stuff

  • Kathy

    9/1/2010 3:03:00 PM |

    Malpaz, I am so proud of you I can't STAND it!  You go girl!
    I've been told once DX'd with Osteoporosis- it will ALWAYS show up in your records, but you CAN reverse it!  Read everything you can get your hands on including everything Dr.
    Davis told us here.  Weight training
    should be a #1 goal.  It is my
    understanding that high fat, ADEQUATE
    protein does NOT promote bone loss,
    as long as you are eating lots of
    non acidic foods too! Make sure you K vitamins, and magnesium and D3
    are what Dr. Davis recommends AND
    FISH OIL!!!  Kathy

  • Anne

    9/1/2010 3:15:03 PM |

    Kathy - I am in my 50s and have osteoporosis. Here in the UK I have been prescribed Strontium Ranelate for over three and a half years now. No side effects and bone density increasing. The company that make it tell me that they are following women prescribed it for over eight years now - so long term studies are done on it.

  • Catherine/Santa Fe

    9/1/2010 3:39:55 PM |

    I have great news!

    I belong to an osteoporosis forum, and a large group of us has been committed to reversing our osteoporosis without using drugs. We have compiled all the credible research we could find on reducing bone loss while also forming strong new healthy bone architecture and started our own bone-health programs---much of what Dr. Davis advocates here plus some other protocols such as the Prune Study and osteo-specific exercises.

    These programs ARE WORKING! at least 40 of us in just this one year have reversed our bone loss without drugs, and actually made increases in our BMD.  (I had a 10-year documented continual loss of BMD and this year gained 3%!!)

    Here is the link to our success stories and the protocols we have been using.  Some are adding strontium citrate, but others  such as myself have had success without the strontium. As Dr. Davis states, achieving optimum D levels played a big part. You will need to click on the Part ! link to read all the back stories--- Part 2 is the current new updated thread just started.
    http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-osteoporosis-foundation/discussion/success-stories-w-o-drugs-part-2/

    A while back, Dr. Davis advised me to try magnesium for my long-standing arrhythmia, which worked magnificently in stopping it, but also was a big part to reversing my bone loss--magnesium, K2, vitamin D, and calcium all have an intricate relationship in transporting calcium and bone minerals safely and effectively to where they belong instead of in tissues, joints, and heart valves.
    Warm regards,  Catherine/Santa Fe

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 3:41:56 PM |

    Kathy, you are so correct about reading everything you can get your hands on. I have osteopenia (strong family history) and have been taking Boniva for over two years. I upped my vitamin D, and added 5-10 mgs of Vitamin K2 earlier in the year, along with 400 magnesium and fish oil.

    I get a bone scan next week, and am very nervous about it. I am hoping I have improvement so I can get off the Boniva and maintain bone density with the vitamins.

    By the way Dr. Davis, I am fairly certain I have a polymophism of my Vitamin D receptor. Do you know if that could play a role? Chris Kessler did an excellent post on it a few weeks ago.
                -Melissa

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 3:47:08 PM |

    Catherine, thank you for posting that information, what great news! Would you mind telling me how much K and magnesium you take? Do you take the potassium that Dr. Davis recommends also?
                -Melissa

  • Kathy

    9/1/2010 3:58:18 PM |

    Melissa don't expect your doc
    to tell you to stop taking the Boniva!
    My OB/GYN was content to let me die on the stuff it was my primary care
    doc that said she wanted me off of it!
    (Course she was the same one that
    did not want me on the strontium) :-(
    Listen to your heart- if your bone
    density has improved get off the stuff
    and use the new tools your are acquiring!  Smile)  Kathy

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 4:04:23 PM |

    Kathy, thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure about my gyn who prescribed it, but my internist did say that if bone density returned to normal, it would be possible to go off. While not horrible, I do have side effects. And then there's possible long term side effects...
               -Melissa

  • Catherine/Santa Fe

    9/1/2010 5:06:13 PM |

    Dr. Davis,

    I can't tell you how encouraging this is that YOU TOO are seeing reversal of bone loss with these protocols. As I mentioned in my post above, we are trying to assemble these success stories which are plentiful but spread out all over the internet and not easily accessible in any sort of organized way.

    It would be so helpful if you would encourage any of your patients who've had success reversing their bone loss on these protocols to post their stories on the thread I posted above, which is from the National Osteoporosis Foundation's osteo forum---where most osteo patients end up when looking for good info.
    I know there are tons of these success stories that are just not getting reported. And regular doctors don't even seem interested in these successes (mine wasn't-but was VERY interested on putting me on  osteo drugs).
    Thank God their are a few doctors like yourself who are actually awake at the wheel.
    Warm regards, Catherine/Sante Fe

  • malpaz

    9/1/2010 5:15:44 PM |

    wow kathy, thanks for the encouragement! that means a lot. i will get to reading... i do keep my diet high fat but i am currently stressing about fertility as it has been a LONG while since i have menstruated(6-7 years)

    i cant afford a bone scan, hormone tests, thyroid or blood work like i need so i am hoping keeping paleo/primal and lots of adequate food is going to help me. glad to know at least ONE part of this is reversible as i am now left with alot of baggage

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/1/2010 5:18:05 PM |

    Hi, Anne and Kathy--

    There are indeed solid data on the use of the trace mineral, strontium, as a means to increase bone density.

    However, since my focus is heart disease, this is the one agent I've had no experience using.

    If anyone chooses to use strontium, please let come back and let us know how your experience goes.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/1/2010 5:21:22 PM |

    Catherine from Santa Fe--

    Thanks for the links to the osteoporosis forums. It's great to hear others are witnessing similar results!


    Luming--

    Thanks for highlighting how important it is to be careful with potassium.

    In fact, it is wise to occasionally have a potassium and a creatinine level checked to be sure that potassium is not accumulating.

    The dose I recommended is very modest. Accumulation is highly unlikely unless kidney disease or some other uncommon conditions are present.

  • Kathy

    9/1/2010 7:04:43 PM |

    Malpaz you didn't pack those "bags" overnight and you won't unpack them
    that fast either.  One day at a time and you will get where you want to go!
    Be patient with yourself! Smile  Kathy

  • adam

    9/1/2010 8:25:01 PM |

    Hi Dr. Davis,

    Another great post, educating as always--my mother kind of freaked out when I showed her this, but once she realized she's taking everything you've suggested to combat her osteoporosis, she was able to breathe again (LOL)

    Here's my slightly off-topic question for you: In your experience in your practice, have you ever seen a patient's problem parathyroid (hypo or hyper) resolve with the addition of vitamin D to his/her diet?  Have you ever had a patient one step away from a parathyroid surgery, only to have the problem clear up when proper vitamin D levels were obtained?  I'm wondering if alot of patients suffer with above normal calcium reading in their blood work because of this?

    Thanks again for all you do,
    Adam Wilk

  • Stephen

    9/1/2010 10:13:16 PM |

    Perhaps the fear of potassium poisoning is overblown? One serving of low sodium V-8 contains 800 mg of potassium from potassium chloride.

    I've been experimenting with topical magnesium lately (Mg sulfate cream and MgCl2 brine aka magnesium oil). It seems to be working. One thing I've noticed since starting taking magnesium (oral and topical) is about a 50 point drop in total cholesterol from 240 to 190.

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 11:22:36 PM |

    You forgot to mention, for those new to this site, that not all vitamin D is the same. They ONLY want D3 (cholecalciferol) gelcaps, not the nearly useless D2 (ergocalciferol) that gets added to milk.

  • Geoffrey Levens

    9/2/2010 1:44:45 AM |

    tI have seen jaw necrosis up close and in person and believe me, you do not want it!

    No need to have "normal"t bone density to get off Boniva, very few doctors will tell you to stop.  You can just stop whenever you want to!

    There is little to no correlation between bone density and fracture rate anyway, it is a scam to sell the drugs.  Quality bone is what you want so alkaline diet and supps as outlined and plenty of weight bearing exercise, esp pumping iron.  No coffee, no sodas, no smoking...t

  • Paul

    9/2/2010 3:21:34 AM |

    It should also be noted that calcium supplementation can significantly compete with magnesium in absorption and utilization.

    There really should be no reason to supplement calcium if you eat plenty of vegetables, especially the dark green leafy kind, or if dairy is part of your regular diet.

    If you find that you need to supplement calcium, try to take it in the middle of the day, and take the magnesium in the morning and at bed time.

  • Stephen

    9/2/2010 2:21:28 PM |

    @malpaz: You wrote "i do have joint bone pain and problms however. i do take D, mag and my K is way over 100% DV eveyday(gimme my greens)."

    The K in greens is K1 and not K2, not the same thing. The Japanese studies were done with the MK4 form of K2 (as used in the Thorne drops or Carlson Labs products).

  • Kathy

    9/2/2010 5:03:26 PM |

    @ Steven!  What brand of transdermal
    magnesium are you using?  I am interested for my husband who I FINALLY convinced to get off statins!
    He had a zero heart scan score score and yet his doc
    STILL had him on statins!  Thanks!
    Kathy

  • kris

    9/2/2010 5:36:52 PM |

    Dr. Davis - I love your blog.  Thank you for providing it for us. I have read the comment regarding carbonation and bone loss several times. I always wondered if it is the carbonation in particular that is the culprit, or the sugars, additives etc. that exist in most soft drinks. There seems to be some confusion regarding this. I love carbonated waters, flavored seltzers with no sugar, artificial or otherwise. Are they included in the carbonated beverages you mention as being detrimental?

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/2/2010 8:15:30 PM |

    Hi, Adam--

    I have indeed seen mild hyperparathyroidism (high PTH) improve or resolve entirely with vitamin D supplementation.


    Kris-

    This applies to all carbonated beverages, since they are all rich in carbonic acid.

  • Paul Rise

    9/3/2010 4:00:30 AM |

    Hi Dr. Davis - Wanted to share my story of calcium overdose. Was told to take 2000 vitamin D but my doctor didn't mention to avoid the D+Calcium brands. I took in a lot of calcium for about 2 weeks and then had painful digestive symptoms and off and on paralyzing pain in my right leg and neck. My doctor's RN was the one who figured it out. After I searched online about calcium supplements and found your blog. I read on and  have cut out 75% of carbs from my diet. Feeling great for a month now. Thanks for what you do.

  • David M Gordon

    9/3/2010 10:17:58 AM |

    Dr Mercola Finally Starts to Catch on to Gluten Free

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/03/media-finally-starts-to-catch-on-to-gluten-free.aspx

  • Anonymous

    9/3/2010 8:16:12 PM |

    My mother took Fosamax for years.  She developed acute myeloid leukemia and her bone marrow was shot.  On reading your latest post, Dr Davis, I've begun to wonder if side effects of the drug could go deeper than the bone.

    Nina

  • Anonymous

    9/3/2010 8:21:08 PM |

    Well I've answered my own question with a Google search:

    http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/fosamax/TSK1OBBDLMJ0EJSQ9

    It never occurred to me that Fosamax could cause such devastation until your comment about jaw disintegration, Dr Davis.

    Nina

  • Anonymous

    9/3/2010 9:10:33 PM |

    In today's news is a British study of standard osteoporosis drugs and esophogeal cancers:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6816HF20100902

    Nina

  • Drs. Cynthia and David

    9/3/2010 9:45:45 PM |

    I don't believe there is any truth to the concept that an acidifying diet promotes osteoporesis, at least as far as protein intake is concerned (I won't go so far as to defend the drinking of phosphoric acid, i.e., sodas).  Numerous studies have shown that increased calcium excretion in urine (observed on higher protein diets) is not due to calcium loss from bone, but rather due to increased calcium absorption.  See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20717017 "Contrary to the supposed detrimental effect of protein, the majority of epidemiological studies have shown that long-term high-protein intake increases bone mineral density and reduces bone fracture incidence. The beneficial effects of protein such as increasing intestinal calcium absorption and circulating IGF-I whereas lowering serum parathyroid hormone sufficiently offset any negative effects of the acid load of protein on bone health."

    Cynthia

  • Pal

    9/3/2010 9:47:11 PM |

    still waiting for doctors to catch onto vaccine free life after the gluten free diet! Wink

  • Mark

    9/3/2010 10:14:03 PM |

    Does plain carbonated water (soda water) have an effect on pH or just carbonated soft drinks?

  • Raphael

    9/4/2010 2:06:48 PM |

    Hello, I'm from Brazil.
    I found your website and wanted to ask, please, for that added the link to my blog for disclosure in order to be partners.
    Already added your on my list of partners, ok?
    My blog is about technology, science and health: http://www.biomedicinaunip.blogspot.com
    Thanks!

  • Stargazey

    9/4/2010 6:09:22 PM |

    Dr. Davis, how can the foods we eat shift our body's pH balance toward net acid?

    As I understand it, if our blood strays very far from pH 7.4 ("a slightly net alkaline body pH") we will not be osteopenic. We will be dead.

    If I'm remembering my physiology correctly, acidic food may affect our tooth enamel, but once the digested food reaches our blood and tissues, the body is well able to buffer it to a very tight pH range regardless of the pH it may have had in its original form.

  • Rick

    9/8/2010 11:38:06 PM |

    Dr Davis,

    One of the many sports drink-type beverages in Japan is called Dakara. It contains no sodium, but 180 mg of calcium, 60 mg of magnesium, and 500 mg of potassium per liter.

    I took potassium tablets for a while a few years ago but found that, even on a full stomach, they messed with my digestion and I gave them up. As an alternative, do you think this Dakara, maybe a 500 mg bottle a day, might be OK? (It does contain sucralose, which might present other problems, though.)

    Any other ways to take potassium?

  • The Naked Carnivore

    9/11/2010 12:58:19 AM |

    Osteoporosis is another disease of civilization caused by insulin interference with calcium metabolism.

    Whatever else you do, you're pushing a rock uphill unless you kick the carb habit.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2010 12:36:31 AM |

    Hi, Cynthia--

    I believe that you are correct: Protein sources, such as meats, have complex effects beyond acidification. That's why meats consumers have greater bone density because of some bone growth-enhancing effect, e.g., insulin-like growth factor.

    I believe that it's the grains that upset the dietary pH apple cart, providing an acid load that must be buffered but lacking the bone density enhancing effects of animal proteins.

  • Anonymous

    9/22/2010 12:00:01 AM |

    Dr Davis,  Didn't really understand your statement about protein.  Should I be limiting my protein intake due to my osteoporosis or not?  

    The endocrinologist today told me that she doubts that I can totally reverse my osteoporosis.  She thinks I can make a small reversal.  Do you think it's possible to totally reverse osteo?  Thank you!

  • Treatment for heart disease

    9/27/2010 12:32:46 PM |

    Heart  disease is one of the most  dangerous disease which takes thousands of life every years all over the world. If we know its symptoms and Treatment for heart disease. We can prevent is to large extent.

  • Treatment for heart disease

    9/27/2010 12:32:54 PM |

    Heart  disease is one of the most  dangerous disease which takes thousands of life every years all over the world. If we know its symptoms and Treatment for heart disease. We can prevent is to large extent.

  • Bernice

    9/30/2010 6:57:09 AM |

    Your article is truly informative. Many women today suffer from osteoporosis. I've read some articles about preventing it by taking enough calcium so our bones will get stronger.

    Back pain is also one of the common ailments of aged people. Causes of back pain are Lumbar Muscle Strain, Ruptured Disc, Discogenic Back Pain, etc. Some people who suffer back pain visit a chiropractor. Brooklyn Center (MN) is one of areas known for good chiropractic treatments. Just last year, my mom had back pain. She went to a chiropractic (Brooklyn Center MN) clinic to have some consultations. After her sessions, she started feeling the improvements.

  • purity12lover

    10/19/2010 2:59:16 PM |

    I’ve been a regular face at the hospital to get treatment for my condition. After a very long time, I kind of almost gave up. Then one of my friends introduced me to Purity 12 products. I said to myself, how can this be a solution to my problems? He encouraged me to try it first and that there’s no harm in trying anyway, and he told me that he’s been using their products and made a business out of it.  As a friend, he bought some products for me as a gift so I could try them. Now, I’m really thankful that I received this gift. It’s been the best gift I have ever received since. I feel better, a lot more energetic and like I’m a totally new person! It’s really important to me to be able to share my story with you because I also want people like me to make this discovery and make their lives finally better!  If you want to know more about them, everything is on their website. Learn More

  • Anonymous

    10/29/2010 11:40:01 PM |

    If someone can't get enough magnesium from their diet, then they should change their diet. I just don't think supplemental magnesium is wise if someone has a basically normal diet. Besides, magnesium chelate is not food magnesium. I do think D3 and MK-7 are a good idea for many people.

  • Anonymous

    12/19/2010 4:57:52 PM |

    I am late reading this blog and want to know if taking vitamin K2 would interfer with taking the occassional asprin - 81mg which I do take from time to time but not daily.

    I did not see you mention anything about that in your blog.

  • Anonymous

    12/29/2010 8:29:08 AM |

    you said: "Animal products are acidic, vegetables and fruits are alkaline."

    Now I have read this for the last 20 years - but have never found any scientific research about it. Maybe you could enlighten me with some links - or facts?

    Many thanks - by the way I love your blog - as does my doctor Smile

  • Breast Augmentation Los Angeles

    1/27/2011 1:38:07 PM |

    Good to know what is going to help the body recover and heal.A healthy body is more than a gift of nature and no ones knows it more than the ailing.Vitamins are present in various fruits and vegetable so we must pay attention to what exactly we are eating.

  • Anonymous

    1/27/2011 9:36:12 PM |

    @ Melissa,
    I'm really late jumping in here and you may not even check this but I have to tell you this. I have osopenia and NOT one of my doctors ever suggested putting me on any type of meds. I was to supplement with cal, and vit D. The ironically, they also didn't bother to tell me how to take the dosage. I didn't know your body can only absorb 500 mg at a time. I was advised to go to a endocrinologist and did. your doc they put you on it to begin with.I would highly recommend going to an endocrinologist..
    Julie

  • Jack

    2/23/2011 5:32:46 PM |

    The AlgaeCal Bone Health Program is a natural <a href="http://www.algaecal.com/osteoporosis-treatment.html>osteoporosis treatment</a> that combines all of the above advice.This natural osteoporosis treatment consists of AlgaeCal Plus, Strontium Boost and weight bearing exercise.

    AlgaeCal Plus is the world's only plant source calcium and It also includes magnesium, trace minerals, vitamin D3 and vitamin k2. Strontium Boost is a supplement consisting of strontium citrate, learn more about strontium, a powerful bone building mineral.

  • Olivia

    5/11/2011 8:04:54 PM |

    Would anyone be able to tell me where I can get the vitamins and supplements Dr Davis suggests? I live in the UK and have done an internet search with no success. I have just been diagnosed with osteoporosis and don't like the sound of most of the treatment drugs available.

  • Magnesium Oxide

    12/20/2011 6:05:45 AM |

    Nice post about vitamins and minerals . Magnesium oxide is also very good for our body's healthy functionality.

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