How about this interesting source of Niacin ... drum roll please ....

Food.

Why the pills?  I guess to a hammer the whole world is a nail.

Humans need about 20mg daily of Niacin, which can be met thru diet.
Lipid modifying effects start to occur at levels above 1000 mg daily (sometimes not until 2000 mg).  It is essentially a type of over dose reaction.

Tried niacin myself at only a few hundred mg daily.  Was able to tolerate the flushing, but then had the pleasure of passing 2 kidney stones.  Niacin has been given the boot ever since.

Is there a relationship between niacin and kidney stones? I've had a kidney stone before and it isn't much fun.

I tried Niacin several times, IR, Niaspan, and Enduracin. But I ended up getting heart palpitations on each. I also kinda felt weird, tired and generally lousy. And strangely enough, even though I toughed it out for several months, my HDL went down a point (at 500mg/daily -- Niaspan & Enduracin)

Just wondering what can be done for those who are Niacin intolerant.

And I tried the aspirin beforehand, taking with food, etc. Didn't matter in my case.

Well, great...just great.  I've been taking NOW Foods Double Strength Flush-Free Niacin (500 mg) for a few months and now I'm told its for naught at best, and possibly damaging my liver.  There is a slight difference in the chemical name - Inositol Hexanicotinate.  I don't suppose that is significant?

Anyway, I guess its back to the Sloniacin I took before.  At least that's considered safe.

Regardless, I'm ever so grateful for this blog.  I learn something from most every post - even when it means I've been doing something wrong.

I know Niacin has the power to make some numbers change, but is there any sort of credible evidence directly studying Niacin's effect on outcomes like heart attack and death? I am not comfortable inferring a benefit from alledged "cholesterol lowering."

Good reminder post, Doc!  

Mikie-
I'm normally a proponent of getting your micronutrients from food, but in the case of therapeutic doses of niacin it's just not feasible.  1000mg of niacin= 19 pounds of yellowfin tuna, 17 lbs of chicken, or 500 cups of asparagus

quote:
.. but is there any sort of credible evidence directly studying Niacin's effect on outcomes like heart attack and death? I am not comfortable inferring a benefit from alleged "cholesterol lowering."

It's interesting with niacin, even after discontinuation it seems to have an effect on mortality:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3782631

Daniel,

It is my understanding that therapeutic doses of Niacin is VERY cardio-protective (assuming the person in question can tolerate it). Lookup the HATS, FATS & CLAS trials. Check out Dr. B G's blog for more info on this:

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2009/09/cardio-controversies-dr-superko-md.html

John M.

I've been taking SloNiacin at 1500 mg/day for quite some time. Recently my HDL went up to 60 mg/dl from 50. No problems with flushing or liver fuction or kidney stones. I've become interested in the use of Niacin plus bile acid binding resin (colestipol) to reduce plaque in arteries (PAD). The studies are old, 1980's and 1990's, and of limited number of patients. However on the Niaspan website they claim that Niaspan along with diet and a bile acid binding resin is FDA approved not only to slow down plaque buildup, but also to help reduce plaque that already exists. niaspan.com/heart-healthy/plaque-build-up.aspx  ...  They cite the old studies on the web page.

I wonder if the claim is substantially true about plaque reduction and FDA approval.

interesting post.  My doctor said that Slo Niacin is less tolerated than Niaspan.  He does not care which you use.

Separate question: what impact does Niacin have on blood sugars and homocysteine?

I have reason to treat aggressively this 'spooky' disease of the heart. The science and anecdotal experience of cardiologists (who stay on the 'cutting edge') like Dr Davis and a few others will attest to the overwhelming positive effects of NIACIN.
I have titrated my Nicotinic Acid (OTC ..100 tabs..cost $11) up to a daily dose of 1.5gm.
The intolerable flush I concluded is in the main...PSYCHOSOMATIC.
At first I thought the uncomfortable feeling was unnatural and  possibly harmful but, the science convinced me that it was harmless. The tact I adopted was to enjoy the flush and look on it as a
wonderful healing zooming through the body. The actual flush cannot harm...the liver is another story.
Sheesh! The things you have to do to play mind games.
The use and other add on supplements  have created excellent lipids (Iam thinking of entering them in the State Championships)
Learn to love the flush..small discomfort-huge benefits.

I have been taking good old regular niacin and actually like the flush--it makes me feel like it is doing something. However, my blood glucose is somewhat elevated (104) over what I believe it should be. My doctor isn't concerned , but I'm not sure. Any feed back?

That's great, Tara!

It would be a great episode of Man vs. Food.

A discussion of the downsides of niacin, even when done properly, sounds like it might be of help to many people.

I'l put it on the "to-do" list.

Did anyone have nausea with higher levels of niacin? I've tried it but it makes me somewhat sick-feeling.

Any ideas?

I'd second the notion to avoid real-slow release niacin...I looked in the mirror to see someone with yellow skin when taking some.

So what are the available 6 hour release brands?

And what about pomegranate extracts to help clear plaque buildup?

Good thread.
I am taking a form of niacin that has 1000 mg of Niacin plus 20 mg of Laropiprant. The Laropiprant is a prostaglandin inhibitor and prevents flushes.
The brand name is "Tredaptive".

My LDL Cholesterol went from 160 to 120 within 1 month. Trigs from 75 to 55.

I combine the tablet with 500 mg of milk-thistle (for liver protection) and have not had any increase in liver enzymes.

That is really a workable compromise and easy to take as one tablet a day.

Not sure if this is available in the US though, I am living in Germany.

I'd be interested in knowing more about the twice-a-day recommendation. I've been taking my immediate-release 2gm/day dose once a day for a couple of years now. (Yes, I get the flush--and my liver numbers are good.)  Dr Davis seems to be saying to take (in my case) 1gm every 12 hours?  Is this easier on the liver?

Too many adverse effects from taking Niacin.  It's not worth the risk.

I would like to hear the author's opinions on the best forms of excersise for heart health.

Hi, Renfrew-

I believe you have earlier access to this preparation than we do.

This may an interesting, though prescription, possibility for those who have intolerable flushes.

Re: comments about the potential dangers of niacin.

We always have to weight the risks vs. benefits. If I have, for instance, a 45-year survivor of sudden cardiac death with 3 stents who I meet with BMI 23.0 and a lipoprotein(a) of 450 nmol/L, then niacin is a small price to pay.

Every situation is unique.

In regards to the risks - can you direct me to research on that. A personal friend of mine had been on a research program in the past for a major pharma in northern Illinois. What they were trying to do was find exactly how niacin works so the process could be synthesized and patented. The project was not successful. In laying the groundwork for the project he had to look at past use of it in the treatment for heart disease. Older docs he interviewed had used up to 3 grams a day with no adverse effects to their patients. Used as a drug, my friend feels it is the safest non diet way to control Tri's and raise HDL. Personally I have take 2 grams a day for well over a year. No harmful effects, blood work normal.
Without statins, tri - 151, HDL - 32
With Crestor 10mg tri 80 to 100, HDL 45.
With 2 gram niacin - Tri 52, HDL 80.
I take regular niacin. After a while, you will experience almost no flushing. Your body will acclimate.
I tout the use of it because it seems a lot of docs have forgotten it's usefulness. Keep up the info when you can.

I've taken immediate-release niacin since 2003 and the only time I developed elevated liver enzymes was when I split a 4 gram daily dose into three divided doses.  I can take 1 gram three times a day with no problems, or up to 2.5 grams twice a day with no problems.  However, HDL elevation seems to plateau at 3 grams a day.

Once in the last 3 years my doctor took me off niacin for 3 weeks to perform an NMR lipoprotein test.  With carbohydrate consumption under 70 grams a day and fat intake of 67%, my LDL particle count was over 2,000 and over 75% of them were small and dense.

Niacin is the only way for me to reduce my small, dense LDL to a safer level.  Diet and exercise is not enough.  I suppose this explains why every male (except for me) has a major heart attack or stroke by the age of 50.

One reason aspirin blocks only part of the flush is that the flush is produced by two separate mechanisms.  The most well known is the release of PGD2 from mast cells.  The other, which is rarely mentioned, is the release of serotonin from platelets.  Serotonin antagonists completely block the flushing due that mechanism (see "Niacin-induced “flush” Involves Release of PGD2 from Mast Cells and Serotonin from Platelets: Evidence from Human Cells In Vitro and an Animal Model", Dean Papaliodis,2008, American Society for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics"

I think niacin and metformin are 2 of the most powerful and safest drugs for metabolic syndrome.

High doses of Niacin will increase blood sugars - I'll take my chances with Chloresterol (mind is low enough) then mess with my sugars.

*mine    not mind  
Sara- since blood sugars go up- how can it be a good choice to improve metabolism?

? Anyone with input on the supposed benefit of taking Niacin every other day, instead of daily ?
Someone brought it up once in an old niacin post of this blog, but nobody else seemed to know about that dosing.

You could also add Protandim to your daily regimen. Pubmed.gov studies have shown Protandim to be extremely helpful in heart disease. It reduces Oxidative Stress and inflammation in the cells. www.dailylifesource.com

You should also add Protandim to your daily regimen. I first was exposed to this product on the ABC Primetime news investigative report. Pubmed.gov has published peer reviewed studies that show Protandim is very effective with heart disease. Check out the ABC news program here: www.dailylifesource.com

Christi:

I looked up on Wikipedia the supplement Protandim you mentioned. I am familiar with 4 of the 5 ingredients it contains and while the 4 have a good reputation, I am not impressed with the overall product. Most of the studies were conducted in an animal model. If I was looking to raise my endogenous antioxidant levels (SOD, catalase & glutathione) like Protandim claims, I would take GliSODin instead...probably in the form of Life Extension brand Endothelial Defense. I am sure Endothelial Defense is more cost effective and a has meaningful doses of better researched ingredients.

Pjnoir:

While it is true that Niacin can raise fasting glucose a few points, this can be more than made up for with a better diet and exercise. In fact, niacin might actually increase insulin sensitivity. Niacin is also extremely cardio protective. The HATS trial showed that Simvastatin+niacin reduced CHD events 89% less than the placebo group.

John M.

Kenneth....
After a long period of utterly fruitless treatment with flush-free niacin as high as 4 grams a day, I started good old fashioned immediate release niacin.

The flushing is manageable. The key is in slowly titrating up to your target dose. I think I went up maybe 50 mg a day every two weeks. I've been at 500 mg twice a day for months. I only get bad flushing when I let myself get dehydrated or indulge in sugar or other pro-inflammatory foods ie fast food or chips, things you shouldn't be eating anyway.

There is some evidence that flavanoids can mitigate the flush, and I've had good luck with 600 mg or so of quercetin taken with my fish oil half an hour or so before the niacin. Baby aspirin helps, as does celebrex when I happen to take it for aches. I haven't been able to escalate the dose as I started getting muscle pains and fatigue even though my liver panels didn't indicate any problem. Everyone has different reactions, but don't write off niacin until you've given it a fair shot.  

I will also tell you that Niaspan is NOT in fact flush-free either. I tried it for a short while and found that it simply delayed the flushing. The product literature says as much. The strategy is simply to put off the flushing until you're already asleep, and you pay hundreds of dollars more for that dubious benefit.

Why pills? Meat, vegetables and fruit deliver all the B3 you need.

Even though I'm pre-diabetic, I've never experienced blood sugar elevation with niacin.

The tolerance to the flushing develops with continuous use.  Although I've never tried it, every other day dosing may result in a more pronounced flushing effect.

I've also used quercetin concurrently with niacin and have noticed a decrease in flushing.  I'm very fair-skinned and still experience flushing after all these years.

What would be interesting if people who are using Niacin here tell us, what effect it had on their respective Cholesterol levels (HDL, LDL, Trigs).
And if they had any issues with increasing liver enzymes or higher bloodsuger.

Just an observation on the (Niaspan or intermediate release verses the imediate release.  I found Niaspan along with other LP(a) supplements (fish oil, Coq10, Pauling Protocol, low wheat) to work much better than the Intermediate release niacin. My LP(a) started at 198 and dropped to 45 with Naiaspan included in the regimen. I switched to imediate release and it went up to 150. I switched back to Niaspan and the LP(a) dropped back down. Has anyone else experienced this phenomena?

Since I began taking 1,000mg of regular niacin/day, my blood platelet count has hovered around 120,000. I have read online that niacin may cause a reduction in blood platelets. Can anyone comment?

I use immediate release Niacin 2 grams a day.  Have used as much as 4 grams a day.

I find that if I take any other supplements with plenty of fluid/food - usually a glass of tomato juice and a glass of water - and then wait for about 15 minutes before taking the niacin, I don't get a flush except maybe once a month and only slightly.  I use capsules and pull them slightly apart so that I can seperate them before swallowing, otherwise I might get a flush at some random time in the future when the capsules finally break open.  When I used to use tablets, I would chew them up so I wouldn't get a random flush at some future point.

I took Niaspan for almost six months.  My physician started me off at 700mg and I ended up at 1000mg by the time I was taken off of it.  My blood work was somewhat better but nothing spectacular and it sure wasn't good enough for me to endure the extreme flushing I experienced three or four times a week. My whole body turned a dark apple red and I experienced extreme itching over every square inch of my body at once for thrity to forty-five minutes, as if I had millions of ants crawling on me.  I've read comments about how people enjoy this experience and I cannot begin to comprehend that as it was like being tortured to me.  I would scratch myself so much that I tore my skin.  Flushing took place even after taking aspirin and eating yogurt thirty minutes to an hour prior to taking it. You can have your niacin.  I'll stick to my Crestor.

Dr. William Davis said...

    A discussion of the downsides of niacin, even when done properly, sounds like it might be of help to many people.

    I'l put it on the "to-do" list.
.................

I scheduled a general checkup in a few weeks, which I'm going to request a purines test, since I've read Niacin might affect gout sufferers.

I've not been diagnosed with gout, but as it runs in my family, and I've also read that even though females get it less - that changes after (menopause, which I've started).

Paternal grandfather suffered from diagnosed gout for years - he had many stomach bleeds from gout meds, so was taken off them. His last gout attack landed him in the hospital: Normal diet, IVF @ 125cc/hr, Foley output at end of day: ZERO.

Younger brother's first gout attack  in late 30's (has one kidney, which probably hastened things). Mother also thinks she had one gout attack after over-indulging on a roast too many days in a row - she recognized her toe as looking like granddaddy's (not her father).

So I'll play it safe and wait to see that my hormone situation didn't trigger high purine levels before starting slowly on SloNiacin.

Please consider including Gout/Niacin info in your article Dr. Davis, and correct any mis-info I might have misinterpreted. I'll ask my GP if he orders liver functions with checkups at my age.

Shreela

A Different Anonymous said...

    What would be interesting if people who are using Niacin here tell us, what effect it had on their respective Cholesterol levels (HDL, LDL, Trigs).
    And if they had any issues with increasing liver enzymes or higher bloodsuger.

    April 21, 2011

I gave my results much earlier.

I think that people here fail to understand that the very first successful Cholesterol lowering "drug" was niacin, plain old drugstore type.

Evidently, the first American drug trial of Niacin was run by William Parsons Jr. MD in 1955 who was then a Resident at Mayo clinic. The actual use of Niacin was pioneered by the Canadians, and Parsons heard about it from a visiting Canadian Physician.

There is therefore well over a half a century of use of Niacin for cholesterol control.

Many MD's did't like it, because it is an unregulated non-prescription substance. Now there is a prescription form which is very expensive and well promoted with big bucks and drug representatives to push it.

Dr. Parsons became less of a researcher and more of a clinician in later years. He has published a book "Cholesterol Control Without Diet : The Niacin Solution" which I suggest that you look at (library) or buy, if you are interested in the use of Niacin for cholesterol control.ISBN 0966256875 $14.95. 276 pages.

With the expensive prescription Niaspan, now made and sold and marketed by Abbott Laboratories,the classical resistance of MD's to use this treatment is falling. No vitamin supplement firm could do this level of marketing for a cheap generic pill.

From page 196:
"Since the 1996 edition, there have been no more significant reports of liver problems with niacin. ...... and yet there are still no more than the 18 cases we listed here, 5 of them questionable."

He also discusses the studies designed to make Niacin look bad, and Statins look good.

It can be said that there is considerable confusion as to how Statins actually work. The first theory was cholesterol lowering. As evidence for inflammation to be a more dominant mechanism for CHD, there are now more reports that Statins have anti-inflammatory properties. But after all of the millions and millions of dollars spent on Statin R&D, the exact behavior of Statins is still not understood in detail.

In fact, there were no real good theories for the painkilling behavior of Aspirin until sometime in about the 1960's or later.

There are tons of information about Niacin out there, you have to go look for them, or buy the books. Well, you can just ask somebody to feed the information to you. That still works as a labor saving device.

Thank you for the reminder to check into my "Now" brand Niacin.  

Now claims sustained release formula on the bottle but there is nothing in the ingredients to suggest any coating or binding.  Regardless, I have been taking 2grms for a long time last thing at night along with my 2.7grms omega3 and 20mg crestor. Trigs and LDL were well controlled with this combo but my HDL was still only 45.  Then I switched back to eating meat(saturated fat), lowered my grain intake and last blood test HDL was 67.  the down side was my LDL went up 10%

Regarding the Flush. If I awake after a few hrs into my sleep, often I will feel the flush/itchy skin.  Small price to pay for 90% reduction in a heart attack.

Trev

http://www.scribd.com/doc/50437/Niacin#fullscreen:off

excellent summary of Niacin types and explanation  for liver toxicity.
Trev

Excellent article on the Pharmacists knowledge of the different forms of niacin.

Inspired me to do some more digging and I found this excellent webpage which is a baseline discussion of the ARBITER 6 Trial, with excellent comments on Niacin myths and factoids.

http://www.theheart.org/article/1022265.do

In particular, look at the readers comments, evidently almost exclusively MD, numbers 34 to about 57. It is here that some of the common myths and factoids are noted, mostly with literature citations rather than unsubstantiated claims.

Below is one example.
---------------------------

Niacin Dissolution Rates
I recently came across an interesting paper on the dissolution rates of various niacin formulations. Niaspan was best in terms of slow dissolution, followed by Enduracin and Slo-niacin. For those interested:

Poon, Ivy O., Chow, Diana S.-L., Liang, Dong
Dissolution profiles of nonprescription extended-release niacin and inositol niacinate products
Am J Health Syst Pharm 2006 63: 2128-2134
------------------------

You might want to take a closer look at Protandim, it's not a simple product and takes a bit of time to take in what it really does in the body. There is proof that it  raises SOD in a human peer-reviewed study. Protandim is proven to increase catalase, glutathione, and a number of other endogenous antioxidants in addition to increasing SOD. The science is there, but how I really know it works is through what it has done for me and quite a number of people I know who have had notable improvements in their health. There is nothing wrong with glisodin, but it isn't in the same class as Protandim.  Protandim is proven to work through the activation of the Nrf2 transcription factor, up-regulating the antioxidant response gene sequence that causes the body to produce it's own native antioxidant products in every cell of the body. This site explains more about it and has links to supportive science:  www.radicalresults.net

Any insight as to whether Nicotinamide may be effective for those with fungal infections?
http://www.wellnessresources.com/studies/niacinamide_helps_combat_candida_albicans/

"Why pills? Meat, vegetables and fruit deliver all the B3 you need."

Because you would have to eat too much to get a clinical benefit

You need 1000 to 2000 mg, 4 oz of chicken gets only 14 mg.. so, for the clinical benefit, you'd have to eat ~400 oz of chicken, or about 25 pounds of chicken a day.. just a  tad too much chiken for me


http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=83

Hi Dr Davis, I'm a new Track Your Plaque member and noticed two new studies claiming niacin was not helpful in reducing the incidence of heart attack. One study compared Zocor with and without  niaspan (summarized in New York Times about a week ago)  and one studied niacin (not sure which form, heard about the study through a physician)  alone.   Do these studies change your recommendations about niacin for Track Your Plaque members?  Thanks in advance and thank you for your Track your Plaque program.

All I could find around here locally was slow release niacin (capsule shaped tablet).  I pop two 500mg and chew them.  I get a real nice flush.

Dr Davis, can you comment on the studies mentioned by Ken Levin above? I would be interested to know the specifics about them, and if they hold nay water.

Thanks

Dr. Davis, very interested in a response to the niacin studies referenced by Ken and Jesse above.

Thanks!

Great article. I especially liked the emphasis on potassium poisoning. This is no joke.

I nearly died from potassium poisoning. I bought 99mg supplements and I once took several a day, along many pounds of potatoes. I then suffered from hyperventilation, muscle cramps, tingling on my extremities, and delirium. I was on a salt restricted diet back then. That was an idiotic move. But I saved myself by adding back salt to my diet.

I don't particularly like potassium supplementation. If I overdosed potassium on potatoes, then potatoes will taste disgusting to me. But if I relied on supplementation, then I might overdose because I can't taste it.

Hope this helps.

on the spot again! any role of GMOs here ?

What about Strontium as part of the drive to reverse established osteoporosis ? Strontium Ranelate is prescribed in the UK as an alternative to Fosamax or Boniva type drugs.

I have osteoporosis but I do not have any coronary atherosclerotic plaque I'm happy to say. I had scan to show my coronary arteries are clear.

I take a high dose vitamin D - current 25(OH)D is 78 ng/ml (195 nmol/L) and do strength training   Can't get vitamin K2 but eat an alkalizing diet with lots of veggies high in K such as kale which, I understand help intestinal bacteria make K2.

I jumped down from my kids trampoline back in 2003 with immense pain.  I thought I had jarred my back but after an x-ray, it turns out I had crushed 3 vertebra. The year before, I had an angiogram after suffering shortness of breath and jaw pains on moderate exercise. Surgeon told me he could not stent because the artery was fully blocked. the good news was it had happened over time so collateral had formed, so no heart attack. My recovery has been more due to self education and action than the medical establishment.

For some time I still had occasional angina, but for the last 18months I have been taking K2 together with VitaminD3, fish oil and Niacin. I have no angina, no muscle aches (ok, maybe that was the statin), bike long distances, kayak, hike....yada yada.

This is what has worked for me.  I sincerely hope people with either low bone density or plaque problems give the K2/D3 route a try.

I sure would LOVE for Dr. Davis
to weigh in on Strontium.  I took
Strontium 680 MG following everything I learned about it and had a nice improvement in my Bone Density.  However, my primary care doc insisted on a strontium level of my blood and of course it was off the wall, and
my doc asked me to discontinue because there have never really been any long term trials on it.  I take D as Dr. Davis suggests, and only half the calcium I used to as he suggests and fish oil etc.  Will add K too!  Kathy

PS  As per Doctor Davis instructions, I too had a heart scan and had
Zero plaque.  I am 61 years old and
have improved from Osteoporosis to
Osteopenia in my bone density, mostly from the strontium.....Kathy

Whenever I see Sally Field's Boniva commericals on TV in which she proclaims, "I thought taking Vitamin D and calcium were enough to stop my bone loss, come to find out, they weren't enough," I can't help but ask (aloud), "yea? How much D were you taking?"

I get embarrassed for her.

Docs in our area (FPs and specialists), while now starting to pay more attention to Vitamin D, still take shots at us for recommending Vitamin D over fosomax, boniva, etc. They feel it's unethical.

We press right on, though.

@ Jessica, I truly want to throw something at the TV when I see her
commercials!  LOL
As "they say"
KNOWLEDGE is POWER!  Kathy

"Coronary atherosclerotic plaque and bone health are intimately interwoven. People who have coronary plaque usually have osteoporosis; people who have osteoporosis usually have coronary plaque. (The association is strongest in females.) The worse the osteoporosis, the greater the quantity of coronary plaque, and vice versa. The two seemingly unconnected conditions share common causes and thereby respond to similar treatments. "


mmmkay you just scared the lving bee--geeez out of me. i have osteoporosis and am only 24 yrs old, recovering anorexic now weight restored

i do have joint bone pain and problms however. i do take D, mag and my K is way over 100% DV eveyday(gimme my greens). not sure where my potassium falls

so is a hih fat high meat diet goodfor osteoporosis or not? i am no very 'schooled' about acid-alkaline stuff

"Coronary atherosclerotic plaque and bone health are intimately interwoven. People who have coronary plaque usually have osteoporosis; people who have osteoporosis usually have coronary plaque. (The association is strongest in females.) The worse the osteoporosis, the greater the quantity of coronary plaque, and vice versa. The two seemingly unconnected conditions share common causes and thereby respond to similar treatments. "


mmmkay you just scared the lving bee--geeez out of me. i have osteoporosis and am only 24 yrs old, recovering anorexic now weight restored

i do have joint bone pain and problms however. i do take D, mag and my K is way over 100% DV eveyday(gimme my greens). not sure where my potassium falls

so is a hih fat high meat diet goodfor osteoporosis or not? i am no very 'schooled' about acid-alkaline stuff

Malpaz, I am so proud of you I can't STAND it!  You go girl!
I've been told once DX'd with Osteoporosis- it will ALWAYS show up in your records, but you CAN reverse it!  Read everything you can get your hands on including everything Dr.
Davis told us here.  Weight training
should be a #1 goal.  It is my
understanding that high fat, ADEQUATE
protein does NOT promote bone loss,
as long as you are eating lots of
non acidic foods too! Make sure you K vitamins, and magnesium and D3
are what Dr. Davis recommends AND
FISH OIL!!!  Kathy

Kathy - I am in my 50s and have osteoporosis. Here in the UK I have been prescribed Strontium Ranelate for over three and a half years now. No side effects and bone density increasing. The company that make it tell me that they are following women prescribed it for over eight years now - so long term studies are done on it.

I have great news!

I belong to an osteoporosis forum, and a large group of us has been committed to reversing our osteoporosis without using drugs. We have compiled all the credible research we could find on reducing bone loss while also forming strong new healthy bone architecture and started our own bone-health programs---much of what Dr. Davis advocates here plus some other protocols such as the Prune Study and osteo-specific exercises.

These programs ARE WORKING! at least 40 of us in just this one year have reversed our bone loss without drugs, and actually made increases in our BMD.  (I had a 10-year documented continual loss of BMD and this year gained 3%!!)

Here is the link to our success stories and the protocols we have been using.  Some are adding strontium citrate, but others  such as myself have had success without the strontium. As Dr. Davis states, achieving optimum D levels played a big part. You will need to click on the Part ! link to read all the back stories--- Part 2 is the current new updated thread just started.
http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-osteoporosis-foundation/discussion/success-stories-w-o-drugs-part-2/

A while back, Dr. Davis advised me to try magnesium for my long-standing arrhythmia, which worked magnificently in stopping it, but also was a big part to reversing my bone loss--magnesium, K2, vitamin D, and calcium all have an intricate relationship in transporting calcium and bone minerals safely and effectively to where they belong instead of in tissues, joints, and heart valves.
Warm regards,  Catherine/Santa Fe

Kathy, you are so correct about reading everything you can get your hands on. I have osteopenia (strong family history) and have been taking Boniva for over two years. I upped my vitamin D, and added 5-10 mgs of Vitamin K2 earlier in the year, along with 400 magnesium and fish oil.

I get a bone scan next week, and am very nervous about it. I am hoping I have improvement so I can get off the Boniva and maintain bone density with the vitamins.

By the way Dr. Davis, I am fairly certain I have a polymophism of my Vitamin D receptor. Do you know if that could play a role? Chris Kessler did an excellent post on it a few weeks ago.
            -Melissa

Catherine, thank you for posting that information, what great news! Would you mind telling me how much K and magnesium you take? Do you take the potassium that Dr. Davis recommends also?
            -Melissa

Melissa don't expect your doc
to tell you to stop taking the Boniva!
My OB/GYN was content to let me die on the stuff it was my primary care
doc that said she wanted me off of it!
(Course she was the same one that
did not want me on the strontium) :-(
Listen to your heart- if your bone
density has improved get off the stuff
and use the new tools your are acquiring!  )  Kathy

Kathy, thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure about my gyn who prescribed it, but my internist did say that if bone density returned to normal, it would be possible to go off. While not horrible, I do have side effects. And then there's possible long term side effects...
           -Melissa

Dr. Davis,

I can't tell you how encouraging this is that YOU TOO are seeing reversal of bone loss with these protocols. As I mentioned in my post above, we are trying to assemble these success stories which are plentiful but spread out all over the internet and not easily accessible in any sort of organized way.

It would be so helpful if you would encourage any of your patients who've had success reversing their bone loss on these protocols to post their stories on the thread I posted above, which is from the National Osteoporosis Foundation's osteo forum---where most osteo patients end up when looking for good info.
I know there are tons of these success stories that are just not getting reported. And regular doctors don't even seem interested in these successes (mine wasn't-but was VERY interested on putting me on  osteo drugs).
Thank God their are a few doctors like yourself who are actually awake at the wheel.
Warm regards, Catherine/Sante Fe

wow kathy, thanks for the encouragement! that means a lot. i will get to reading... i do keep my diet high fat but i am currently stressing about fertility as it has been a LONG while since i have menstruated(6-7 years)

i cant afford a bone scan, hormone tests, thyroid or blood work like i need so i am hoping keeping paleo/primal and lots of adequate food is going to help me. glad to know at least ONE part of this is reversible as i am now left with alot of baggage

Hi, Anne and Kathy--

There are indeed solid data on the use of the trace mineral, strontium, as a means to increase bone density.

However, since my focus is heart disease, this is the one agent I've had no experience using.

If anyone chooses to use strontium, please let come back and let us know how your experience goes.

Catherine from Santa Fe--

Thanks for the links to the osteoporosis forums. It's great to hear others are witnessing similar results!


Luming--

Thanks for highlighting how important it is to be careful with potassium.

In fact, it is wise to occasionally have a potassium and a creatinine level checked to be sure that potassium is not accumulating.

The dose I recommended is very modest. Accumulation is highly unlikely unless kidney disease or some other uncommon conditions are present.

Malpaz you didn't pack those "bags" overnight and you won't unpack them
that fast either.  One day at a time and you will get where you want to go!
Be patient with yourself!   Kathy

Hi Dr. Davis,

Another great post, educating as always--my mother kind of freaked out when I showed her this, but once she realized she's taking everything you've suggested to combat her osteoporosis, she was able to breathe again (LOL)

Here's my slightly off-topic question for you: In your experience in your practice, have you ever seen a patient's problem parathyroid (hypo or hyper) resolve with the addition of vitamin D to his/her diet?  Have you ever had a patient one step away from a parathyroid surgery, only to have the problem clear up when proper vitamin D levels were obtained?  I'm wondering if alot of patients suffer with above normal calcium reading in their blood work because of this?

Thanks again for all you do,
Adam Wilk

Perhaps the fear of potassium poisoning is overblown? One serving of low sodium V-8 contains 800 mg of potassium from potassium chloride.

I've been experimenting with topical magnesium lately (Mg sulfate cream and MgCl2 brine aka magnesium oil). It seems to be working. One thing I've noticed since starting taking magnesium (oral and topical) is about a 50 point drop in total cholesterol from 240 to 190.

You forgot to mention, for those new to this site, that not all vitamin D is the same. They ONLY want D3 (cholecalciferol) gelcaps, not the nearly useless D2 (ergocalciferol) that gets added to milk.

tI have seen jaw necrosis up close and in person and believe me, you do not want it!

No need to have "normal"t bone density to get off Boniva, very few doctors will tell you to stop.  You can just stop whenever you want to!

There is little to no correlation between bone density and fracture rate anyway, it is a scam to sell the drugs.  Quality bone is what you want so alkaline diet and supps as outlined and plenty of weight bearing exercise, esp pumping iron.  No coffee, no sodas, no smoking...t

It should also be noted that calcium supplementation can significantly compete with magnesium in absorption and utilization.

There really should be no reason to supplement calcium if you eat plenty of vegetables, especially the dark green leafy kind, or if dairy is part of your regular diet.

If you find that you need to supplement calcium, try to take it in the middle of the day, and take the magnesium in the morning and at bed time.

@malpaz: You wrote "i do have joint bone pain and problms however. i do take D, mag and my K is way over 100% DV eveyday(gimme my greens)."

The K in greens is K1 and not K2, not the same thing. The Japanese studies were done with the MK4 form of K2 (as used in the Thorne drops or Carlson Labs products).

@ Steven!  What brand of transdermal
magnesium are you using?  I am interested for my husband who I FINALLY convinced to get off statins!
He had a zero heart scan score score and yet his doc
STILL had him on statins!  Thanks!
Kathy

Dr. Davis - I love your blog.  Thank you for providing it for us. I have read the comment regarding carbonation and bone loss several times. I always wondered if it is the carbonation in particular that is the culprit, or the sugars, additives etc. that exist in most soft drinks. There seems to be some confusion regarding this. I love carbonated waters, flavored seltzers with no sugar, artificial or otherwise. Are they included in the carbonated beverages you mention as being detrimental?

Dr. Davis, Denise Minger has published the first part of her analysis of wheat, and it is positively bone-chilling.

You were way, way ahead of the curve on this one!

Wheat Is Murder: The China Study, Wheat, and Heart Disease

Hi, Adam--

I have indeed seen mild hyperparathyroidism (high PTH) improve or resolve entirely with vitamin D supplementation.


Kris-

This applies to all carbonated beverages, since they are all rich in carbonic acid.

Hi Dr. Davis - Wanted to share my story of calcium overdose. Was told to take 2000 vitamin D but my doctor didn't mention to avoid the D+Calcium brands. I took in a lot of calcium for about 2 weeks and then had painful digestive symptoms and off and on paralyzing pain in my right leg and neck. My doctor's RN was the one who figured it out. After I searched online about calcium supplements and found your blog. I read on and  have cut out 75% of carbs from my diet. Feeling great for a month now. Thanks for what you do.

Dr Mercola Finally Starts to Catch on to Gluten Free

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/03/media-finally-starts-to-catch-on-to-gluten-free.aspx

My mother took Fosamax for years.  She developed acute myeloid leukemia and her bone marrow was shot.  On reading your latest post, Dr Davis, I've begun to wonder if side effects of the drug could go deeper than the bone.

Nina

Well I've answered my own question with a Google search:

http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/fosamax/TSK1OBBDLMJ0EJSQ9

It never occurred to me that Fosamax could cause such devastation until your comment about jaw disintegration, Dr Davis.

Nina

In today's news is a British study of standard osteoporosis drugs and esophogeal cancers:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6816HF20100902

Nina

I don't believe there is any truth to the concept that an acidifying diet promotes osteoporesis, at least as far as protein intake is concerned (I won't go so far as to defend the drinking of phosphoric acid, i.e., sodas).  Numerous studies have shown that increased calcium excretion in urine (observed on higher protein diets) is not due to calcium loss from bone, but rather due to increased calcium absorption.  See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20717017 "Contrary to the supposed detrimental effect of protein, the majority of epidemiological studies have shown that long-term high-protein intake increases bone mineral density and reduces bone fracture incidence. The beneficial effects of protein such as increasing intestinal calcium absorption and circulating IGF-I whereas lowering serum parathyroid hormone sufficiently offset any negative effects of the acid load of protein on bone health."

Cynthia

still waiting for doctors to catch onto vaccine free life after the gluten free diet!

Does plain carbonated water (soda water) have an effect on pH or just carbonated soft drinks?

Hello, I'm from Brazil.
I found your website and wanted to ask, please, for that added the link to my blog for disclosure in order to be partners.
Already added your on my list of partners, ok?
My blog is about technology, science and health: http://www.biomedicinaunip.blogspot.com
Thanks!

Dr. Davis, how can the foods we eat shift our body's pH balance toward net acid?

As I understand it, if our blood strays very far from pH 7.4 ("a slightly net alkaline body pH") we will not be osteopenic. We will be dead.

If I'm remembering my physiology correctly, acidic food may affect our tooth enamel, but once the digested food reaches our blood and tissues, the body is well able to buffer it to a very tight pH range regardless of the pH it may have had in its original form.

Dr Davis,

One of the many sports drink-type beverages in Japan is called Dakara. It contains no sodium, but 180 mg of calcium, 60 mg of magnesium, and 500 mg of potassium per liter.

I took potassium tablets for a while a few years ago but found that, even on a full stomach, they messed with my digestion and I gave them up. As an alternative, do you think this Dakara, maybe a 500 mg bottle a day, might be OK? (It does contain sucralose, which might present other problems, though.)

Any other ways to take potassium?

Osteoporosis is another disease of civilization caused by insulin interference with calcium metabolism.

Whatever else you do, you're pushing a rock uphill unless you kick the carb habit.

Hi, Cynthia--

I believe that you are correct: Protein sources, such as meats, have complex effects beyond acidification. That's why meats consumers have greater bone density because of some bone growth-enhancing effect, e.g., insulin-like growth factor.

I believe that it's the grains that upset the dietary pH apple cart, providing an acid load that must be buffered but lacking the bone density enhancing effects of animal proteins.

Dr Davis,  Didn't really understand your statement about protein.  Should I be limiting my protein intake due to my osteoporosis or not?  

The endocrinologist today told me that she doubts that I can totally reverse my osteoporosis.  She thinks I can make a small reversal.  Do you think it's possible to totally reverse osteo?  Thank you!

Heart  disease is one of the most  dangerous disease which takes thousands of life every years all over the world. If we know its symptoms and Treatment for heart disease. We can prevent is to large extent.

Heart  disease is one of the most  dangerous disease which takes thousands of life every years all over the world. If we know its symptoms and Treatment for heart disease. We can prevent is to large extent.

Your article is truly informative. Many women today suffer from osteoporosis. I've read some articles about preventing it by taking enough calcium so our bones will get stronger.

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If someone can't get enough magnesium from their diet, then they should change their diet. I just don't think supplemental magnesium is wise if someone has a basically normal diet. Besides, magnesium chelate is not food magnesium. I do think D3 and MK-7 are a good idea for many people.

I am late reading this blog and want to know if taking vitamin K2 would interfer with taking the occassional asprin - 81mg which I do take from time to time but not daily.

I did not see you mention anything about that in your blog.

you said: "Animal products are acidic, vegetables and fruits are alkaline."

Now I have read this for the last 20 years - but have never found any scientific research about it. Maybe you could enlighten me with some links - or facts?

Many thanks - by the way I love your blog - as does my doctor

Good to know what is going to help the body recover and heal.A healthy body is more than a gift of nature and no ones knows it more than the ailing.Vitamins are present in various fruits and vegetable so we must pay attention to what exactly we are eating.

@ Melissa,
I'm really late jumping in here and you may not even check this but I have to tell you this. I have osopenia and NOT one of my doctors ever suggested putting me on any type of meds. I was to supplement with cal, and vit D. The ironically, they also didn't bother to tell me how to take the dosage. I didn't know your body can only absorb 500 mg at a time. I was advised to go to a endocrinologist and did. your doc they put you on it to begin with.I would highly recommend going to an endocrinologist..
Julie

The AlgaeCal Bone Health Program is a natural <a href="http://www.algaecal.com/osteoporosis-treatment.html>osteoporosis treatment</a> that combines all of the above advice.This natural osteoporosis treatment consists of AlgaeCal Plus, Strontium Boost and weight bearing exercise.

AlgaeCal Plus is the world's only plant source calcium and It also includes magnesium, trace minerals, vitamin D3 and vitamin k2. Strontium Boost is a supplement consisting of strontium citrate, learn more about strontium, a powerful bone building mineral.

Would anyone be able to tell me where I can get the vitamins and supplements Dr Davis suggests? I live in the UK and have done an internet search with no success. I have just been diagnosed with osteoporosis and don't like the sound of most of the treatment drugs available.

Nice post about vitamins and minerals . Magnesium oxide is also very good for our body's healthy functionality.