I just finished cringing at today's Today Show w/Dr. Nancy S., and ran to see what you'd have to say.  Thank you for saying what you did (my LDL is higher than expected range and my Lp(a) is low).  I've watched and cringed before though (Gardisil vaccine for one): she touts mainstream's mantra, and is a great messenger/advertiser (subtle and not-so-subtle) for GE, parent company of NBC and maker of CT scanners.

I am so disappointed with Dr. Snyderman... she seems like such a nice woman. I think the interview was like a piece of Swiss cheese... full of holes (of information).  She has heart disease "because she ate too many cheeseburgers as a teenager"? Oh really...

It's been two years (!) since her CTA and she's not had symptoms like shortness of breath, so therefore she's better???  Oh, that's right... she's on a statin and eating better, so naturally she's better.  No proof there, but she's better...

OMG, how can such a bright woman, and a physician, too,  face her coronary artery disease with the equivalent of blinders and an eye patch?

It is tragic enough that her heart disease most likely has progressed with this standard treatment, but she also has a wide following who trust her advice... and they will likely think what she is doing is enough to reverse (and she did use the word "reverse") this type of heart disease!  It isn't enough, and she gave inadequate and poorly informed advice to millions of people. What a shame... a real opportunity missed.

So while Nancy Snyderman, M.D. is smiling, downing a statin, and wearing a Red Dress on Friday... I will be employing a host of TYP strategies ... and scheduling my next advanced lipoprofile analysis!  Real knowledge is powerful!

Thank you for Track Your Plaque and your spot on Blog, Dr. Davis!

madcook

She's obviously not much of a medical correspondant.  If she were, she would dig up the data showing statins provide no benefit to women.

She's probably right about blaming the cheeseburgers she ate as a teenager, but for different reasons.  It's the white flour buns, not the meat & cheese.

Speaking of heart scans, here's a negative article about them put out on today's NaturalNews.com newsletter: http://www.naturalnews.com/025535.html

It's frustrating, because NaturalNews.com has at least some good info (it's a real mixed bag), and a lot of people follow the stuff put out by that site. How many people are going to get turned off to CT scans because of this article, and suffer drastic results because of it?

David

Hi, David--

While I'm glad that the media is highlighting the excessive exposure of CT coronary angiograms, they are confusing these high-radiation tests with low-radiation heart scans.

We can only continue to try and educate everyone, including the media, on the important differences.

Well, in all fairness they do point out in the NaturalNews article that they're referring to the CT angiograms, but it still seems a bit misleading because they never really mention it in contrast to the safer, lower radiation scan. So it's likely that anyone reading that article without a trained eye will simply lump all CT scans together and write them all off as unsafe. It's unfortunate.

Strange stuff that Lp(a).  The TYP protocol worked well for me a dropped my Lp(a) from 21 to 3.  But, was the reduction due to fish oil alone or the combination of fish oil and other TYP strategies?  If you had to rank each of the following strategies in order of effectiveness (from 1 to 10) for reducing Lp(a) what would they be?  5,000 MG EPA + DHA, 5,000 IU D3, 1,000 MG Slo-Niacin, low carb/high fat/high protein diet, elimination of grain, sugar and starches?

Maybe PUFA's 2yr/life?

Post got lost again, said "error" ....
11 humans (rheumatoid arthritics) blocked their interleukin 6 (Il-6) signalling by regularly saturating the alpha chain of Il-6 receptors with  Tocilizumab reduced their Lp(a) as a side benefit;  relevant data:
* starting Lp(a) = 34.5 (+/- 12.8) mg/dL
* 1 month Lp(a) = 24.3 (+/- 7.6) mg/dL
* 3 month Lp(a) = 19.9 (+/- 6.3) mg/dL
EPA/DHA from anti-inflammatory fish oil also blocks Il-6;  so this may be operating mechanism where it too can lower Lp(a).

my cardiologist believes in many of your protocols, but forbids me to take large dose of omega 3 epa/dha. i am on plavix/aspirin since stents in two arteries one year ago. i have thrombocytopenia, lower than threshold platelet count and lower rbc and hgb levels. his thoughts are this addition could cause bleeding episodes that could cause even more trouble. i understand and agree with him. my supplement intake has been limited, even ubiquinol because of my situation. no chance of ending plavix because of recently diagnosed mitral valve regurgitation during echo. any thoughts on your part or the community thoughts. i feel as if i am losing control of my health as i hold distrust for most traditional medical community.

My research of lipids & Essential Fatty Acids has taught me that the "insightful lesson to be learned from the incredibly slow response" of fish oil in the treatment of CAD & CVD is that fish oil is:  1.) the wrong substance (there are BETTER ones!) and dosage levels,  and 2.) largely ineffective in the face of continued intake of high carb & TRANS fat containing processed junk, fast & restaurant "foods" and grocery store vegetable oils.   Failure to make changes to correct bad dietary habits and failure to stop the intake of TRANS fats is the single cause of re-stenosis in CVD patients, which guarantees further atherosclerosis, thrombosis, strokes & heart attacks.

Dr. Robert Rowen recently wrote about his re think of the whole fish oil thing in his June Second Opinion newsletter that somebody (not me) posted here: http://goo.gl/rPvRx  
which he based on this:  http://goo.gl/uAiv2  
and this:  http://goo.gl/j9MgY    
and mostly this:  http://goo.gl/ZdORy  

In regard to the drop in Lp(a) comment it should be noted that LDL, VLDL & their  fractions will correct in response to reducing carb intake alone, even without further dietary correction or supplementation.  There is also a nutritional supplement protocol known as the Linus Pauling therapy that is reported to lower Lp(a) by using vitamin C, L-lysine, and L-proline, but Joe Mercola advises the regimen "is ONLY for people with established CVD and/or elevated Lp(a) levels."

easybleeder:  Check with your doctor to see if you may be a candidate for the newer antiplatelet meds  Prasugrel or  Ticagrelor.  Both have been reported to have a lower risk profile and mortality rate than Clopidogrel.  Prasugrel is reported to be useful for those with high thrombotic risk.  Go to: http://www.escardio.org/communities/councils/ccp/e-journal/volume8/Pages/antiplatelet-agents-alegria-barrero.aspx

Oops, I posted the search for Rowen's article, it's the top hit, but here's the real link:  http://goo.gl/DDp8P

Atherosclerosis is a slow process, so I am not surprised that strategies to halt or reverse it are also slow (but powerful).

From "Omega-3 Fatty Acids in Inflammation and Autoimmune Diseases"

There have been a number of clinical trials assessing the benefits of dietary supplementation with fish oils in several inflammatory and autoimmune diseases in humans, including rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, psoriasis, lupus erythematosus, multiple sclerosis and migraine headaches. Many of the placebo-controlled trials of fish oil in chronic inflammatory diseases reveal significant benefit, including decreased disease activity and a lowered use of anti-inflammatory drugs.

I wonder, what is exact reason that some doctors don't recommend large doses of fish oil (and 5g EPA/DHA is large dose, its around 25-50 ml of liquid fish oil equals 2 - 4 tbsps), because that is what I heard as doctors response from several people with cvd problems. I always thought its because of rancidity. I put extra 200 IU of mixed tocopherol in my 100 ml liquid fish oil and keep it in fridge just to be sure.

Thrombocytopenia and anemia - have you looked into a possible connection to gluten. Anemia is a very common problem in those with any kind of gluten sensitivity. If you do a PubMed search for "thrombocytopenia" and "gluten" you will bring up some references. There are also some references in The Gluten File - just scroll down to the bottom of this page

Have you stopped eating wheat as recommended by Dr. Davis. It may be important for you to go 100% gluten free. Gluten can damage any and all organs and systems and you don't have to have celiac disease for this to happen.

HI, Might-o--

As always, a fascinating suggestion. Sadly, there are no investigations that shed any light on precisely why. An anti-inflammatory mechanism is a very good possibility. I also wonder if there is an effect at the transcription level, given the modification of apo(a) tail length.

Hi, Easy--

It sounds like you need an explanation for your thrombocytopenia.

Putting the question of thrombocytopenia aside, I have never seen any excess bleeding when adding fish oil at any dose to aspirin and Plavix.

prasugrel, while having a better cvd profile, in studies, i believe, has  a worse profile in bleeding episodes. it is usually given to those who are non-responders to plavix as determined by genetic profile (ususally done at time of angioplasty and afterwards). ticagrelor, unfortuneatly, has yet to gain FDA approval. maybe soon though. drs. will be slow to adopt to a new drug.

Hi c-classes,
That tweaked edible oil is a  formulation from Brian Peskin not the link's Rowen, M.D. remarking on Peskin's product inducing  better elasticity of blood vessels in comparison to fish oil.  There are other effects of fish oil's  EPA/DHA that  are not related to vascular elasticity;  such as the benefit of reducing Lp(a) that Doc Davis reports.  If you have decided to personally set a limit on fish oil intake it would be interesting to hear your experience.

Hi Might-o,
Yeah,  that oops comment is a correction to a comment I submitted which has not yet passed the moderation.  You can find my original comment here:  http://goo.gl/fyVfH   and a related comment here: http://goo.gl/WrQKK

As I note in the related comment I started taking fish oils around 2002 for shoulder pain due to 30 years of heavy construction work.  They were effective, but after researching Peskin's & MANY others work re lipids I found something better & stopped taking the fish oils, moved higher up the metabolic pathway and now follow Peskin's protocol & take around 2 or 3 grams of organic O-6 in either evening primrose, sunflower, safflower or hemp seed oils & 1 gram of O-3 organic flax to maintain his recommended 2.5 or 3 to 1 O-6 to O-3 ratio.  

Haven't had a workup since my 45th b'day 9 years ago, but I have no health issues at all that I am aware of.   I occasionally check my bp with the free machine in drug stores, it's always within normal range between 117/77 to 121/81-82, no palpitations, angina or other symptoms at all.

Only problem I've noted since starting that regimen is I seem to always be clipping my hair & nails, growth seems to have accelerated.

Is it safe to presume that adding  Dr.Peskin's edible oil formulation to my intake along with 2.5 Gm of fish oil would be beneficial?  Does fish oil not affect the vascular elasticity as well?  BTW, what is the recommended amount of fish oil   one should take daily?  I too am afraid of the potential of oxidation.  Is there any way to measure the level of oxidative stress related to taking too much fish oil?

"Server Error" keeps eating my comments ... anybody else?

Hi Mary A,
Peskin is not a medical doctor, although some medical doctors use his protocols and products; Peskin thinks "parent"  omega 6 & omega 3 fatty acids are all that is needed for anybody to make enough "derivative" omega 6s & 3s (inc. EPA/DHA). His theory is taking fish oil is giving us the incomplete benefit of a "derivative" and incurs an excessive level over-loading in un-natural way  ;   claiming risks potential lower natural tumor cell killing, increased bacterial infection, worse  insulin resistance, less glucose tolerance, "resting" blood sugar rises, brain damage and discounts lower triglycerides as "irrelevant".  Doc Davis probably has heard of Peskin and still finds fish oil useful.

Does fish oil (or Borage oil)  to a regimen of Crestor (currently prescribed 20 mg/d) & Niancin ER (1g/d) make sense?   ...Have read that high doses of oils & statins taken together effectively cancel benefits of both.

Peskin did not invent the theory of the dangers of taking pharmacological overdose levels of omega 3 derivatives, it is a well known biochemical fact that has been thoroughly researched by many other groups.  Check any of his writings & you'll see he always cites the sources of his findings.  

Peskin himself has only been led to his conclusions by simply analyzing ALL the available literature from many research groups, separating the true wheat from the false chaff, then he simply republishes the results of his analysis of the literature to make it understandable to all, some of which has been known & available for decades but has been either suppressed, discredited, discounted, sidestepped, ignored or just not talked about or publicized by the mainstream media because it's contrary to the financial interests of the medical & pharmaceutical "sick care" industries.

A perfect example of that is M.D., Ph.D. biochemist Otto Warburg who was awarded the 1931 Nobel Prize for his work in defining the prime cause of cancer.  But who has ever heard of him & the prime cause?  It's staggering how few M.D.'s & oncologists have ever heard of him, or have ever been taught about Warburg in med school. And if the medical profession doesn't teach their students, it's a slam dunk guarantee that people will never hear about Warburg & the prime cause of cancer from their doctors.   I'm 53 years old & I had never heard of him or his work, & if I hadn't stumbled across Peskin I most likely would have lived my entire life, contracted some kind of cancer along the way, most likely prostate, then later would have died & STILL would never have known about Warburg.

Anyone that wants to do more in life than just parrot the opinions published in the popular & "peer reviewed" press can find the true facts.  I find it quite ironic that at our point in human history, when we have even freely available to us the most powerful information & truth gathering tool ever devised by man, science is DEvolving into the realm of belief, tradition & superstition, and people are being polarized into affinity groups based on those beliefs, traditions & superstitions instead of gathering together to honor real scientific truths.

Hi c-classes,
Warburg is famous enough for describing cancer cells proclivity for performing aerobic glycolysis as an edge to thrive; I think this is best described as a modality of function and modern research is showing the causes  of cancer are complex. You may be interested in this weeks published details of the molecular development promoting cancer  cells replication; see journal Molecular Cell, vol. 43, issue 1, 122-131 "Failure of Origin Adaptation in Response to FORK Stalling Leads to Chromosomal Instability at Fragile Site".

A synopsis : Kerem, et.all.,  give 1st details of how fragile sites of a single DNA molecule breaks in early cancer due to "perturbed" DNA replication; normally DNA copying slows and sometimes stalls at fragile sites so that the cell sometimes has to shift to use stress mechanisms in order to finish single molecules DNA copy. But, in the case of an incipient cancer cell which has already utilized the stress mechanics  that cell has no more stress mechanisms to call on that can do enough at a fragile site to keep proper replication going; then the DNA molecule actually breaks whereby normal protein expression suffers, functional changes occur and cancer defects particular to that type of cancer replicates.

I guess my question still remains does the edible oil formulations of Dr. Peskin hold any health benefits for a person and if so, then how much would a person take and with or without fish oil?  Are there any other blogs or websites that are dedicated  to his research?   BTW, great info Might-o'chondrl-AL and cancerclasses.

Forgive me for asking the previous question before I read Dr. Peskin's  website. I am not a scientist but the research he identifies seems to support his conclusions.  Cancerclasses, you seem to be a supporter of his.  Are you following his protocol and, if so, what have you experienced?  I would appreciate others opinions regarding Dr. Peskin and his protocol.  I think this is a very important area especially since many physicians and PhDs (i.e. Dr. Sears et al) encourage the use of fish oil in the dietary regime.

Hi Mary A:
I have submitted several replies to this article that have not passed moderation and have not been posted here, just click on my name at the top of my comments & it will take you to my Twitter channel where I have posted my comments. Click on the link at the comment that starts with "My study & research of..."  then also click on the one 2 posts down about  bursitis & arthritis.  You may also scan my posts for anything else that interests you, as I post info there from a wide variety of subjects & sources I find interesting & relevant while conducting my own research.

Hi Mary,
Peskin refers to 1988-1992 rodent studies showing brain "damage" from  extra EPA/DHA; maybe elsewhere he cites newer brain damage indications. The extrapolation to humans is not certain ; since we have +/- 1,100 million synapses per cubic mm. , while rodents have 1,397 million synapses per cubic mm.  Humans gain not only from having astrocytes 2.5 times wider than rodents, but also we function with 1 astrocyte for each 270,000 to 2,000,000 synapses in a neurological domain; while rodents must use 1 astrocyte for each 20,000 to 120,000 synapses in a neurological domain.

As for Peskin's assertion that lowering triglycerides is "irrelevant" Doc Davis elaborated for us why they are worth controlling; when more trigs going into circulation hitched to VLD Lipid  this morphs into trig rich LDL and small LDL particles increase in numbers. The same trig laden VLDL  contributes to formation of some HDL,  but the result is rapid degradation of that HDL; so the HDL circulating is small HDL particles and the net amount of HDL is also reduced.  Doc Davis has been seeing human clinical success using fish oil (EPA/DHA) to lower the VLDL and co-administering niacin to act on reducing the number of small LDL particles (to ideally maximum 10% of total LDL number of particles);  while the fish oil & niacin combination work synergisticly to keep down circulating  triglycerides  (to ideally 60 mg/dL). This is a synopsis of what I l learned here.

Peskin's PEO, "parent essential oils", are touted as offering measurably better vascular membrane flexibility in comparison to fish oil; this may not  (may be, I don't know) necessarily translate to reduction &/or protection from the circulating small LDL molecules that oxidize and foster plaque.  He quotes USDA that only 0.05 % of alpha linolenic acid we ingest is made into DHA and 0.20% made into EPA; extrapolating from there that supplementing EPA/DHA radically exceeds what we are designed to need.  The fact that age remodels many of our functions to me suggests that  taking extra EPA/DHA is akin to dosing one for  therapeutic purposes (ie:  reduce VLDL, trigs &  Lpa the theme of this thread) that are more critical to survival  from sudden death than vascular flexibility alone is.   If someone on Peskin's PEO protocol has before and after Lp(a) & NMR lipid profile data that would be interesting to see.

Peskin exclaims fish oil raises blood sugar and insulin resistance; my own experiment 4 months after adding large dose of EPA/DHA  (also started niacin) laboratory data show I did  elevate my fasting serum blood sugar an extra 5mg/dL,  with HbA1c going up 0.3; yet had fasting insulin measuring only 4.1.  Personally I was happy to trade that  blip in  glucose tolerance for the drop in number of small LDL particles from 1,021 nmol/L (out of  1,676 nmol/L total) down to small LDL particles numbering 96 nmol/L ; and triglycerides dropping from 90 mg/dL down to 42 mg/dL.  Blood sugar control seems ammenable to more dietary interventions to compensate  against  and  I'm relieved to see Doc Davis'  advice worked for my unruly small LDL.

Thank you Cclasses and Might-o for your responses.  Could something so simple be so valuable as PEO.
I did read Prof Peskin's Iowa study along with a couple of posted letters from physicians supporting the benefits of PEO found in their patients along with the results of an actual scan taken of Brian Peskin's heart  which showed NO plaque at all--.  Correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that if the intimal lining is healthy there is less /no inflammation. A healthy intimal lining prevents the events that cause a thrombus from occurring thereby preventing plaque build up and the adverse sequelae from developing. I know this is a simplistic understanding but, like I said, I'm no scientist.  It seems like it would be worth a good controlled study since Prof Peskin says positive results can be seen in as little as three months.   Hopefully, any study would include looking at various inflammatory markers as well as the total cholesterol profile.
Might-O..I have been reading lately about the effectiveness of delta and gamma tocotrienols in reducing LDL, Lpa as well as increasing insulin sensitivity.  There is some research to support this.  I don't know if Dr. Davis utilizes this in his Tx protocols.

Yes, fats ARE simple, but you don't have to be a scientist to know that fats are crucially important to have as a regular part of our diets.  I find most people are seriously deficient in knowledge (which is intentional & by design) of the critical physiological & biochemical importance of regular dietary intake of essential fatty acids & good saturated animal fats, and thus are seriously deficient in those EFA's & natural saturated animal fats.  

The medical & pharmaceutical "sick care" industries both perpetuate & exploit the public's fear of fats, cholesterols, protein, salt, etc, the very same substances that every one of our 100 trillion cells are made of, and this is why the average American is chronically sick & tired, diabetic, dehydrated, cancerous & cardiovascularly compromised.  As even you have learned & now know, there is NO omega 3 or derivatives in arterial intima & media, or even in human skin, it' all omega 6.  Yes it's true that a healthy arterial intima indicates less inflammation & vice versa, but EFA's & PEO's only facilitate healing & proper structural conformity, they won't PREVENT arterial damage if a person continues the high carb & TRANS fat intake that leads to the elevated serum glucose & LDL & VLDL levels that damage & alter the structure of endothelial cells & cholesterol.

The studies you would like to see have been done, they are out there, Peskin writes about & references them all the time.  His book The Hidden Story Of Cancer and his website are not just about cancer, he includes a large amount of information about heart disease, statins, nutrition & related issues. Go to brianpeskin dot com & see Reports & Publications, and in particular go to Reports - Medical Reports - New Look LDL

Thanks CClasses for your help.  You are so right....the public at large have been taught to be afraid of so many things regarding their health.  Some try to seek out valuable information and others don't.  Many people look to their physicians to tell them all they need to know and that is a mistake.  Maybe with this new crisis going on in health care, people will begin to take an even more active role in their health.

@ easybleeder:
Plavix CAUSES Thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura (TTP).   From Wikipedia search Plavix,
"Clopidogrel is an oral, thienopyridine class antiplatelet agent used to inhibit blood clots in coronary artery disease, peripheral vascular disease, and cerebrovascular disease. It is marketed by Bristol-Myers Squibb and Sanofi-Aventis under the trade name Plavix. The drug works by irreversibly inhibiting a receptor called P2Y12, an adenosine diphosphate ADP chemoreceptor. Adverse effects include hemorrhage, severe neutropenia, and thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura (TTP).

Also Google Brian Peskin, aspirin.   From the cover of his article "Aspirin Is Awful":   “...Low-dose aspirin, which enhances platelet adhesivity, increases thrombosis (clotting) when platelet adhesion dominates as the response to injury.” Buchanan, MR and Jejana, E, Journal of Clinical Investigation, 67503-508

So your doctor has you on Plavix which ostensibly prevents thrombosis, but also causes thrombosis, and also has you on aspirin which causes thrombosis?!?!  His theory must be that the effects of the two drugs cancel each other out, so theoretically you should be perfectly healthy.  No wonder you feel so out of control.

Hi Might-o,
Yeah, that oops comment is a correction to a comment I submitted which has not yet passed the moderation. You can find my original comment by clicking on my name at the top of my comment.

I started taking fish oils around 2002 for shoulder pain due to 30 years of heavy construction work. They were effective, but after researching Peskin’s & MANY others work re lipids I found something better & stopped taking the fish oils, moved higher up the metabolic pathway and now follow Peskin’s protocol & take around 2 or 3 grams of organic O-6 in either evening primrose, sunflower, safflower or hemp seed oils & 1 gram of O-3 organic flax to maintain the biochemically optimum recommended 2.5 or 3 to 1 O-6 to O-3 ratio.

Haven’t had a workup since my 45th b’day 9 years ago, but I have no health issues at all that I am aware of. I occasionally check my bp with the free machine in drug stores, it’s always within normal range between 117/77 to 121/81-82, no palpitations, angina or other symptoms at all.

Only problem I’ve noted since starting that regimen is I seem to always be clipping my hair & nails, growth seems to have accelerated.

Mary A:  Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner.  Taking fish oils along with Omega-6 & Omega 3 would be redundant & that much Omega-3's would negate the effect & benefit of the O-6 by dominating the desaturase & elongase enzymes the body uses to produce the derivative forms of the fats that are further down the metabolic pathway, as PhD lipid researcher Mary Enig explains in her article "Tripping Lightly Down the Prostaglandin Pathways."  Just google the title of the article & also study the metabolic pathway chart there, I can't include the links here or this comment won't pass moderation.

If you take a look at the O-6 & O-3 metabolic pathway chart in that article, it becomes readily apparent that by taking any single derivative form of O-6 or O-3 you are jumping into the pathway at the point of that particular derivative, creating an oversupply & IM-balance of that derivative, and you are also cheating your body & yourself out of ALL the other derivative forms your body needs & would otherwise use for the formation of the critical BALANCE of prostanoids, leukotrenes, lipoxins & thromboxins you'd have if you instead just took the parent base substrate Omega-6 & Omega-3 at the top of the pathway. People just don't understand the importance of supplying your body ALL and complete, natural organic forms of the materials it needs for ALL it's metabolic processes, and that's why people are sick & diseased.  

To be completely truthful, there is a list of diseases & conditions that deactivate the desat & elongase enzymes necessary for the breakdown & utilization of the base substrate oils, so some  persons with those conditions require & will only benefit by taking the derivative forms.  However, in analyzing that list of diseases it's also easy to deduce that many of them only exist because of a primary & earlier deficiency of essential fatty acids.

Hi,

DR Davis recommends taking fish oil for curing heart disease, but I also read somewhere that fish oil is also anti-inflammatory and inflammation is the real cause of heart disease, not high cholesterol.

What you think of that? Is inflammation more dangerous than high cholesterol?
Thank you!

I'm new to the site, and I just wanted to say how much I'm appreciating it.  I began taking krill oil capsules a month ago, and haven't had a single heart palpitation since.  In fact they stopped after only two days of taking it.

Hello there! This is my first visit to your blog!
We are a team of volunteers and starting a new initiative in a community
in the same niche. Your blog provided us beneficial information to work on.
You have done a wonderful job!

So what if you blood sugar before a  whole-wheat cereal is < 90, and an hour later it's 115?  

Didn't reach the 168 mark, nor did it stay below 100...   based on those numbers, should the cereal be avoided for weight loss?

QUOTE:
"My favorite method to restrict carbohydrates is to eliminate wheat and minimize exposure to other carbohydrates, such as oats, cornstarch, and sugars. All these foods, wheat products worst of all, cause blood sugar and insulin to skyrocket."

I have diabetes, and I have belatedly started cutting way back on all those foods. And I sure hate to give up my sandwiches, but the bread has become a disaster for me.

Jim

ReliOn by WalMart $12, 50 test strips $20, my choice.

A small portion of oatmeal hardly raises my blood sugar but a big portion raises it a lot.  For me the portion size of carbohydrate seem to be more important than what the carb is.

Comical. Hiding from carbs isn't going to make your blood sugar problems go away.

sorry but I'm Scottish

"The Scots developed a deep love for oats, and it shows in their traditional recipes handed down through the generations.

Porridge, oatcakes, fish fried in oatmeal and many other particularly Scottish recipes have the humble oat at the centre.
Oats are extremely nutritious, containing more protein and unsaturated fat than any other cereal grain and for many years right up and including the present day, Scottish soldiers are considered to be tougher and stronger than their English counterparts, thanks to a daily diet of oats."

"Celts ate like most other Europeans, subsisting mostly on grains supplemented by meats, fruits, and vegetables. Exactly what they ate varied by area, and Celts grew local crops. Scottish highlanders were famous for supposedly subsisting almost entirely on oats, though this was not entirely true. However, oats remain the favorite grain of Scotland, and Scottish cuisine is full of them."

My mother has found that certain other things can raise her blood sugar as well--mostly stress and Xanex.

For the past few months, I've gotten after her every day to lay off starchy foods. It helps keep her blood sugar down, but mostly, I think she sticks with it because she feels better. She has a better mood and more get-up-and-go than I've ever seen in her.

@Matt Stone:

Comical, yes, I agree.

Sorry, but Dr. Davis appears to sincerely believe that:
carbs => insulin => fat

Remember, you're talking to someone who claims to have tried an Ornish type of low-fat diet and yet gained 31 lbs and had "skyrocketed" triglycerides.

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/ornish-diet-made-me-fat.html


I wonder how those Asians eating white rice stayed so thin.  The "it's genetic" cop-out won't work, as those same populations gain weight when they come to the USA and adopt more SAD-like diets.

What would explain Dr. Davis' 31 lb weight gain on a low-fat diet?  I wonder where those extra calories came from?  31 lbs * 3500 calories/lb = 10,8500 excess calories.  

I wonder where those excess calories came from.

I think the thing with Asians I have known is although they eat a lot of white rice, they also eat a lot of veggies and meat and they do not eat much desert or other sources of carbs.  Most do not eat much wheat and no sodas.  Many do not even have bread in the house other than an occasional piece of 'bao.'  I suspect, compared to Americans, their overall carb/sugar intake is likely less.  Most food is prepared fresh, not canned or out of boxes.  And many lowcarbers think that sugar (fructose) and wheat are probably worse culprits than rice when it comes to glucose control.

As for oatmeal, you might want to research how much phytic acid and lectins are in that stuff.  Phytic acid leaches nutrients out of your system and lectins damage the intestinal tissues.  PLus there is the already mentioned issue of high insulin response.  Maybe the Scots are just tough because they are tough with a tough attitude and oats were eaten simply because they were available and people were hungry.

Another vote for the ReliOn meter. Crazy cheap (apart from the strips) but wicked easy to use.

I forgot to mention, people might want to do a bit of research on glucometer accuracy before purchasing one.  Many are wildly inaccurate and erratic, even the more expensive ones.  Some of the most accurate have often been cheap ones.  Back when I bought mine (my dog at the time was Type 1 diabetic and I needed to track his BGs), I found that a simple $20.00 one had excellent accuracy ratings.  SOmetimes you can even find free glucometer offers, but again, make sure you get a well rated one.  Some of those are so bad that to me they should be illegal.  Manufacturers are happy to provide the less wealthy with lowcost glucometers cuz they figure they will get you later when you buy the expensive matching test strips.  On the flip side, many who want the best wrongly assume the expensive glucometers are better.

Also, for those who want to do a glucose tolerance test for diabetes like they do at the hospital, you can do a reasonably accurate facimile of the test using 26 jelly beans and your own glucometer instead of the gross sugar syrup they feed you at the hospital.

It is broadly know what drives insulin. You can look it up everywhere. So why spend money on devices and test strips and put pins in your finger? Furthermore the measurements will depend on the state of Insulin Resistance you are in.

I agree with Eva - people need to see studies and results first before purchasing a glucometer, or at least be educated with the gravity of the disease before resorting to self-help equipments.  Diabetes assessment is not a walk-on-a-park.  It should be treated with utmost consideration to how your body would possibly react to certain medications / equipments, because we all know its fatal if we do otherwise.

Thought you might want to know your post was accompanied by an ad from joybauer.com telling us that a diet of pineapples and apples will cure our diabetes.

If you are going to use google ads you have to put some time into reviewing which ads come up and blocking them in your adsense account. Otherwise your visitors will be wafted to sites promising miracle cures and promoting all the foods you are warning them about. I check my ads on a daily basis. There's always one or two to weed out.

Even more comical is a bloated, doughy, carb-binging Matt Stone thinking he's somehow not a prime example of why Dr. Davis recommends laying off the carbs.

Dr. Davis,
Isn't a "blanket" target of 100mg/dl a bit unrealistic? I have witnessed some people never go above 90 even after having lots of carbs. I myself am very thin, but there's no way I could stay under 100 an hour after eating, even with almost zero carbs.

I don't know Matt Stone, but the question he raises seems like a good one.  Does lowering your blood sugar lead to less insulin resistance?  If anybody knows, I would be interested.

What Matt Stone said was " Hiding from carbs isn't going to make your blood sugar problems go away.", different to "Does lowering your blood sugar lead to less insulin resistance?".

In my case I have a personal problem with insulin resistance, fasting blood glucose 110, but no  postprandial, below 100 after almost any meal.

Can anybody ad some insight as to what may be the problem, or how to understand it?

"Even more comical is a bloated, doughy, carb-binging Matt Stone thinking he's somehow not a prime example of why Dr. Davis recommends laying off the carbs."

ROFLOL. EXACTLY.

"Even more comical is a bloated, doughy, carb-binging Matt Stone thinking he's somehow not a prime example of why Dr. Davis recommends laying off the carbs."

FAIL.  Nobody explained how Dr. Davis managed to gain 31 lbs on a low fat diet?  You can't manage that on rice and potatoes.  Maybe he indulged a bit too much on "low fat" refined sugar products, "low-fat-by-serving-but-still-fat" products, and oils.  That weight gain came from a calorie excess not possible by unprocessed starches, that's for sure.  Unless you think Dr. Davis could eat upwards of 20 potatoes a day...


Double FAIL for ignoring the thin Asians who eat carbs, yet when they quit their high carb diet for a SAD-like diet, they gain weight.

Wavesense Presto, also available
at Walmart - Test strips $17.87/50
in my store.

It does'nt hurt that the meter is
noticeably more accurate than many
(I take insulin, so it matters...)

Jack

My BG starts at 99, so eating a meal and keeping it at 99 would require me to eat no carbs.

So is it reasonable for me to try to keep my GB under 115 after a meal or should I stop eating all carbs?

Thanks

Steve

Related to this topic, I just returned from North America after several months in Japan and I saw a television show where they implemented an eating program for four people with high blood sugar. The diet program consisted mainly of eating all meals by chewing the food thirty times for each food bite as well as eating some type of vegetable fiber in this manner first.   The show monitored the people for three weeks, during which, the average blood sugar reading went from above on average 120 down to  88 when properly and slowing chewing the food. I could barely believe what I saw.

Dr. Davis, you will love the linked post below, an exhaustive analysis of the raw China Study data which completely ratifies your prescient beliefs about wheat (to a degree that may amaze even you):

The China Study: Fact or Fallacy?

Matt Stone, you are fat.

Matt Stone -- if that's him in that picture, is not fat. At all. Don't belittle people just because you don't agree with their opinions.

As for his statement of "Hiding from carbs isn't going to make your blood sugar problems go away." I'm not sure what that means. Where do you get "blood sugar" problems if not from carbs?

Regarding China, everyone just assumes they gorge on sticky white rice all day. In reality, the Chinese eat way more meat (especially fish), some vegetables and then finish the meal with rice. Visit China, they eat a lot less rice than the average person thinks. Also there is an "iodine theory" for as why they don't get fat off white rice. Plus just because white rice is a staple for them, doesn't mean it is anywhere equal to an american/SAD diet of french fries, bread, cereal etc.

@Peter
Yes, if your blood sugar stays at normal levels you're less likely to become insulin resistant. Insulin resistance happens when your blood sugar is elevated for long amounts of time.

The weight I gained years ago on an Ornish-like 10% fat diet, I believe, was from whole wheat bread products mostly, but also oat meal, oat bran, and some low-fat snacks like low-fat ice cream.

I'm going to make a prediction: controlling the excursions of postprandial blood sugars is going to prove to be among the most powerful youth-preserving, antiaging strategies known.

Does this also apply to athletes who go through strenuous physical exertion and training? Or, does the 100 mg/dl apply to the typical couch potato who goes for an occasional walk?

-- Boris

ALTERNATIVE WAYS TO LOWER POST-PRANDIAL GLUCOSE

Slowing gastric emptying should lower the post-prandial insulin spike.  

--Fiber: ?guar gum or pectin
--vinegar
--protein
--Fat

I disagree with Linda. I don't think you need an expert to figure out if your blood sugar responses are bad or not.  Try to get your fasting bgs around 80 or at least under 100  (80 is better).  Try to keep your post eating sugars from jumping all over the place, not too high but neither should they drop super low either.  There are tons of example charts on the net about what the govt considers normal/acceptable and you can assume you want to do way better than those.  There is disagreement about how low it really should be, but I don't see anyone arguing that you want those numbers to be high, that is for sure.  My point was only, when testing this, make sure you don't by a crappy inaccurate glucometer.  Informed type 1 diabetics are typically the most knowledgeable crowd on glucometers simply because their life depends on knowing their blood glucose (even in the short term) and so they are highly motivated.

Post-prandial at one hour under 100? I thought the target was under 120 at 2 hours post-prandial.  Why the sudden stricter number?  The rate of digestion is affected by many factors such as fiber and fat content of a meal.  Therefore -- one may not see their true blood glucose peak for 3 hours after a meal.  Also, those with hypothyroid conditions have delayed stomach emptying.  I think Dr. Bernstein and/or Dr. Michael Eades wrote that 1 gram of carb raises blood sugar 5 points -- this is an approximation -- so even a very small amount of carb could raise sugar over 100.  Say if I have small portion of meat, plus 2 cups of veggies, plus 1/4 cup nuts and 10 blueberries for dessert -- sugar hit from the blueberries may be delayed for hours because of the nuts.  Ditto for small amounts of very dark chocolate (85%+) -- chocolate slows stomach emptying.  This is why Dr. B does not believe in ever adding "fun foods" and restricts all fruit and sugar -- forever -- no small amounts added back.  His plan is 6 carbs in the morning, 12 at lunch and 12 at dinner. If I was a diabetic, I would do this - but for those of us that do not have diabetes and who are normal weight -- I don't thinks such strict measures are necessary for health or longevity.  As an aside -- my husband has the same supposedly ideal triglycerides as me -- 30s or lower -- yet he lives on whole wheat and grains -- seriously -- eats it at every meal plus desserts.  Yet his HDL is high for a man and LDL is low. He does exercise vigorously (lifelong athelete) and has an active job (no a desk jockey) -- plus both parents are active and near 90 -- no diabetes in either of them though both eat mixed carb rich diets.  I believe differing genotypes may explain this. Everyone's looking for a one size fits all holy grail to diet and I think we have to find what works for each of us.  Some people find fruit -- even low carb berries - makes blood sugar skyrocket yet can handle small amounts of tubers or whole grains.  I think testing gives one information on how to optimize one's diet but I am dubious of the 100 post-prandial target after only 60 minutes.  I have also noticed that when I am at my slimmest summer weight, the same carb portions make my blood sugar higher than when I am at my slightly heaview 5-6 pound heaview winter weight.  Drastic seasonal changes suck for weight control.

One of the best info sources I've read regarding diabetes/heart/low glycemic load.  Thank you.  I'm the only true non-diabetic in my family and have other complicated genetic medical issues going on.  I have learned to ignore much of what I've read about diabetes since my family followed the traditional diet without success.  What has worked for me best has simply been finger sticking and paying attention to everything and every reaction.  No oatmeal, no wheat, no rice/potatoes, small and frequent meals, moderation in all things, exercise, and I'm still amazed when people say "I can't do this".  It is not easy to change your habits but when your life depends on it, you just have to.  Watching our own reactions to food and lifestyle should always be the measure we follow. We all need to be our own health advocates, or at least I need to be.  I'll be reading "you" to follow the info you are providing.  Thank you so much.  Enlightening.

Hi, Jackie--

Your experience is similar to what I am witnessing: Knowledge of your postprandial blood sugars tell you what foods are screwing up metabolism. It tells you which foods, what portion sizes, and what other factors (like exercise, macronutrient mix, and liquids) affect glucose excursions.

There is a lot of help to control sugar these days.The instruments that can test sugar at home helps.Diet and exercise still stay at the top being the controlling factors for the disease.

I am losing weight like crazy on this diet.  If you wanted to get a lot of attention for it you could call it Dr Davis's Prick Diet and before you know it you'd have it in the Huffington Post.

Decided to try this - bought a one touch meter at wally world this afternoon - $11.75 for the meter, and $55 for 50 strips.

I hadn't had anything to eat for around 20 hours. Glucose shows 106. Had a Wendy's chicken club sandwich + diet coke - 2 hours later, glucose is 107. Had curried chicken for dinner with 1 1/2 cups of basmati rice and 20-25 rainier cherries, and 2 hours later - 157. Prediabetic?

My hand is sore too.

the level of insulin secretion doesn't necessarily correlate with blood sugar level.

Alfredo,

It might not be insulin resistance causing your high fasting sugars.  With insulin resistance, usually your post-prandial numbers decline before your fasting levels do.

I am in the process of trying to get tested for MODY 2, a type of usually mild diabetes marked by elevated fasting glucose, which can be accompanied by anything from a normal A1c (glucose control over time) to a moderately elevated one.  It has varying degrees of severity - often it is subclinical.  A person with MODY 2 may become insulin resistant, like anyone else, however.  In fact, the elevated fasting sugars and moderately impaired glucose tolerance might lead to insulin resistance in some people with this mutation.

Fortunately, people with this mutation tend to have low triglycerides, unlike most people with diabetes.  

You very well might not have this - it's supposedly rare - but I was in your boat for many years, and later developed gestational diabetes and now have "mild" diabetes.  

Read more about MODY types of diabetes at
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14047009.php
(Diabetes Update Blog by Jenny Ruhl.)  

As for people questioning how Dr. Davis got fat and diabetic on the Dean Ornish diet - I do think some people are less carb tolerant than others.  If you can eat all the carbs you want and not get elevated post-prandials and/or not become insulin resistant, kiss your genes, your pancreas, and your liver, and keep your fingers crossed.  Not everyone is built the same.  They really aren't.

The first few nights I kept dreaming about brown rice and steel cut oats, but now I am back to dreaming about women.

I've been doing this for a month and a half and I'm wondering about trade-offs.  My fasting glucose is normal for the first time in years but my measured LDL is way up, and my small particles are high too (835).

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Carbs are just one element but if you want a more complete approach, you can try other methods to get rid of those unwanted fats.

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