I think the key will be if you continue to see good results over a period of a year or so.  Changes in your workout approach, whether it is more volume, less volume, slower, more explosive etc. tend to produce good initial gains because you are doing something new and different, it's always good to mix it up once in a while.

"I think the key will be if you continue to see good results over a period of a year or so. Changes in your workout approach, whether it is more volume, less volume, slower, more explosive etc. tend to produce good initial gains because you are doing something new and different, it's always good to mix it up once in a while."

I beg to differ on this. When something works, it works. There is no reason to "mix it up" if results are what you are after. If exercise is something you are using for entertainment then yes you'll need a variety of things to keep you interested.

If you allow for recovery, sleep and eat healthfully, eventually strength gains slow to a crawl no matter what technique you use. In fact, once you see your strength gains slow and halt, you know you are on the RIGHT track. Sometimes it will take multiple attempts with the same weight load before progress resumes. Stay the course. Don't jump ship because you are not making the same gains you did early on in your training program - so long as your training is sound.

Here's a good paper discussing in part the non need for "mixing it up."

http://bit.ly/dIexZi

I had good results with slow burn after reading Fred's book. After a while, my strength gains stalled. Fred then recommended adding more fat to my diet and 'microloading'.  I got some 1.25 pound magnets and used those to more gradually increase the weight at each workout.  It worked very well and I lost another 10 pounds of fat and added another 30% of resistance across the board.

Doug McGuff's book Body by Science also has a lot of good information.

After many years of training to stay in shape, I think mixing it up is good for the mental part of it all, the "mo".
No doubt slow burn works and is very practical compared to the 90 minutes done 5 days or more a week of P90X which is quite popular right now.
In my teens I did a Bob Hoffman work out from Strength & Health Magazine, that consisted of very heavy weights, with low reps done slowly & breathing deeply. I gained a lot of muscle doing that, and could hardly walk after the squats.

I've been doing Fred's Slow Burn for over three and a half years now after a recommendation from  Dr Mike Eades and I love it. Also read Doug McGuff's book Body by Science a while back and it's a really useful addition. I follow a low carb Paleo diet. I have a diagnosis of osteoporosis and this was the initial reason I took up Slow Burn but it has improved my overall health no end. I used to do it at home but now at a gym so I can lift heavier weights. I must look strange - a middle aged woman doing her weight lifting in slow motion but I don't mind

I haven't tried Slow Burn, but I've had good results with Body by Science (which was my first introduction to HIT). I was impressed with how quickly it made my arms look more athletic (I'm female) and I was pretty surprised to get the metabolic training effect out of something so slow.

As far as "mixing it up" goes, as I understand it the concept of periodization came about to allow athletes to focus on strength, explosiveness, metabolic conditioning, etc. at different times so as to improve in multiple ways over the longer term without overtraining
(patterns like Westside Barbell training try to address the same problem a different way). If your goal is to maintain muscle mass for health and appearance, as Fred says you really don't need to worry about it even though your progress will eventually slow.

I've been doing a slightly modified version of 'Slow Burn' (modified to suit my own interests and physical needs), with great success.  I agree with Mr. Hahn that if one is following a properly designed routine, there is absolutely no need to "mix it up" every now and then, as the P90X ("muscle confusion) infomercials would maintain; there's simply no scientifically derived evidence to support the point.  That said, Dr. Davis, if you would be willing, I'd love to see a few of the specifics of your workout routine (e.g., exercises, exercise order, etc.).  Thanks for the blog.  Will.

Wow. After 15 years, you just caught up with it? Now you know why exercise science in college is terrible. No difference than nutrition. Most of information are from USSR or its surrounding area way back in time. Ever wonder why they used to dominate Olympic games? They were way way way ahead of USA in exercise science despite inferior genetics. After the break up of USSR, USA started to get all the information over exercise science but not everyone caught on quickly.

Anyway, it's good to mix things up mainly to beat boredom. It's different for everybody so go with whatever you want.

Slow burn will never work for athletes though. The movements demand quick sudden movement so it's good idea to mix things up, not solely on slow movement. It doesn't work in REAL LIFE. Basically, you're being taught to move slowly.... Not really a good idea.

I want to add one example of how learning USSR's exercise science and others will get you very far...

http://www.defrancostraining.com/index.php


VERY GOOD trainer for athletes.

I bought Mr. Hahn's book and was very interested in the assertion that slow burn is the only (or perhaps best way) to train fast twitch muscles. My cross-fit instructor is skeptical. Other than this book, does anyone know of additional research that supports this?

I tried "Slow Burn" at home, and frankly, it was too hard for me to keep doing. It is intense! Next I tried the children's versian, still couldn't make my self do it, even though I could tell it was working.
Finally, I asked Fred Hahn for a recommendation for a person trainer in this method in the Seattle area, and he gave me Greg Anderson's, Serious Strength gym. I've been training there since April and am very happy to go in and work out with personal attention and encouragement for about 10 minutes a week, and with the results.     Jeanne

"Basically, you're being taught to move slowly.... Not really a good idea."

I don't buy this notion. I use slow-burn to build strength, and it's the only formal exercise I do. I'm 54 yrs old and I indulge in two sports that require both stamina and speed-surfing and skiing, and I have plenty of both.

"Slow burn will never work for athletes though. The movements demand quick sudden movement so it's good idea to mix things up, not solely on slow movement. It doesn't work in REAL LIFE. Basically, you're being taught to move slowly.... Not really a good idea."

Slow Burn is a method of resistance training designed to build muscle and thus strength and endurance. Any athlete who becomes stronger than he is already will experience a benefit in her chosen sport.

A stronger athlete is a better athlete IOW.

The two requirements for improvements in a sport skill is the exact practice of that skill and improvements of the body (being stronger, leaner, etc.)

Training fast with weights does not make one faster on the field. Slow and fast twitch muscle fibers are both recruited towards the end of an intense set of an exercise. These terms slow twitch and fast twitch refer to the fibers fatigue characteristics not their ability to move the body slowly or quickly. Many coaches and trainers misunderstand this.

It's been said that the best program is the one you can stick with.  There is no single optimum system IMHO.  If one tries this system and enjoys it, it is a good system for that person.    Also, there is much written about the benefits of slow movement training, as related to central nervous system training.  The safety factor would also be attractive to middle-aged people to whom injury prevention is a priority. For serious athletes (probably 0% of commenters) training crossover is probably exaggerated. If you want to get good at football, play football.  If you want to get good at lifting weights slowly, lift weights slowly.

I get a lot of strange looks when I'm doing the slow burn at the gym.  I do an upper body workout one day and lower body/core two days later.  Three days I week I do Mercola 8's HIIT on a treadmill.  I'm already seeing improvements in my running but nothing new in the mirrors yet.

kevin

"The two requirements for improvements in a sport skill is the exact practice of that skill and improvements of the body"

I agree with this and I don't see the relation between "strength" training and other sports specific training. Strength is strength no matter how you get it.  To train "athletically" then you need to train as close as possible to that end which fits into other parts of a complete regimen. There are ways to train weights sports specific which would bring it closer to, and work more toward your chosen endeavor but then you would still need separate strength training. Or at least can benefit from it.  So when training for strength, what difference does it make how fast or how slow you lift (as it applies to your sport)?  None IMO. It only matters as far as "weight training" results are concerned.  And getting stronger and more fit never hurt any part of sport (IMO).

Kevin you said:

"I get a lot of strange looks when I'm doing the slow burn at the gym. I do an upper body workout one day and lower body/core two days later. Three days I week I do Mercola 8's HIIT on a treadmill. I'm already seeing improvements in my running but nothing new in the mirrors yet."

I really suggest that you consider ditching the HIIT stuff. You're hindering your ability to build muscle with that stuff.

As for looking leaner, that is diet. What is your diet like?

About the comment that slow burn teaches to move slowly. So what? That's how we learn motions. We learn motions independently of speed. As we repeat the motion, we become more proficient. As our proficiency increases, we can do the motion faster. But we learn the motion at slow speed first.

We don't learn to move slowly. We learn the motions slowly, then we can increase speed at will.

Once we've learned a motion, it's difficult to learn a similar but different motion at full speed. That's because the previous motion takes over as an automatism. Something like the golf swing for example. It's difficult to learn to swing a certain way when we've been swinging a different way for years. But it's possible, if we do the motions slowly first.

However, Slow Burn is not about learning the motions slowly, then increasing speed at will. Yet there is nothing preventing us from doing the same motions at full speed outside of the Slow Burn workout. If anything, since we've "practiced" the motions during the workout, we are now more proficient in these same motions and can execute them with more precision at higher speeds.

About the comment that slow burn teaches to move slowly I remember reading that chi kung standing meditation is suppost to be one of the most effective exercises to build speed. Not too fun to stand still for an hour a day though.
For me 2 workouts a week sound like too little, I don't doubt they're effective, I'm just sure I'd miss the activity the other 5 days of the week. Would probably feel lazy and tired. As a computer worker one of the reasons I enjoy working out is the high energy feeling it provides.
Is there a complementary activity that is suggested? I see in a previous comment that HIIT isn't.

The inevitable comments about a slow-movement workout making you slow always leave me puzzled. The slow movement makes your muscles work harder and prevents you from relying on momentum to move the weights. Your muscle memory of faster movements aren't erased.

My previous workout plan (Body for Life) consisted of more, faster reps. If the argument that slow workouts make you slow were true, my dancing would have gotten slower. It hasn't. I've built up strength with no joint pain and fewer workouts.

As for two workouts per week versus five being a problem--now I've heard everything. Go out and have some fun!

Muscle stem cells (in skeletal muscles) promotes a muscle transcription factor. With under use and age fast twitch fibers undergo more stem cell loss relative to the rate which slow twitch lose their % of stem cells.

Exerting the muscle to endure being used constantly over a time period increases the number of muscle stem cells. This applies to men and women. For both, fat and fibrosity infiltrated into muscle down regulates stem cells.

The anabolic effects of sex hormones show that endurance use at moderate intensity raises testosterone and the amount of muscle stem cells. Men lose +/- 1.6% testosterone annually after their very late 30's.

Women lose 90% of their estrogen at menopause, so their muscle loss pattern differs. Endurance training done by women to maximize anabolic bonus for stem cells is less simple. However, straining exertion at an incline triggers estrogen receptors and these instigate stem cell boost.

In both sexes the loss of non-postural fast twitch muscles is more rapid than the loss of slow twitch fibers. Yet not all human muscles lose stem cells at the same rate. These myogenic stem cells are called "satellite cells".

"anonymous'..... the Soviets excelled for years because their athletes were 'roided to the gills. C'mon, man, some of their women looked like Mad Dog Vachon, for cryin' out loud!

I'd like to give Slow Burn a try, but the Ken Hutchins-style workout places are usually located in tony 'hoods like Lake Forest, IL, out of reach for the majority of us. I'm also .... curious....I've hear that both the joints and nervous system can get fried over time with this method due to 'going to failure' all the time. Comments please.....

"I've hear that both the joints and nervous system can get fried over time with this method due to 'going to failure' all the time. Comments please....."

Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

"As for two workouts per week versus five being a problem--now I've heard everything. "

Really? Never heard that before? ok then, go tell any of this kids he can exercise only 30 minutes per week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1malgZpYKn8

I enjoy the fact that I only need to do this once a week.
The rest of the week I figure skate and horseback ride, and enjoy the fact that I have a lot of energy and strength for my very physical job.
I don't want to spend my whole life in a gym.

Jeanne

Bingo Jeanne.

"Really? Never heard that before? ok then, go tell any of this kids he can exercise only 30 minutes per week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1malgZpYKn8"

We're talking about resistance training for 30 minutes a week not sports play. And these kids do not need ANY amount of exercise for sports play other than for skill practice of soccer.

Fred Hahn said...
Kevin you said:

. I'm already seeing improvements in my running but nothing new in the mirrors yet."

I really suggest that you consider ditching the HIIT stuff. You're hindering your ability to build muscle with that stuff.

As for looking leaner, that is diet. What is your diet like?


Fred, Thanks for the reply.  At my age--54--I have to reconcile myself to the inevitable slow physical decline.  Slow Burn keeps me from overdoing the weights and self-injury.  HIIT does the same for my cardio.  Dr Mercola wrote that his HIIT protocal stimulates over 500% increase in Growth Hormone.  

In part because of this website I've quit most all meat and dairy.  I admit to over-indulging in cookies and cakes this time of year.  In the past it didn't matter because running 50-80 miles every week kept my weight under control.  I've had to stop that due to a torn achilles;  Vibram Five-Finger Shoes were the cause.

A checkup and treadmill stress test last year showed I was at 20% body fat but a better stress-test number than 90% of men my age.  

My comment about nothing new in the mirrors yet was a joke but the point is I'm not seeing any new muscles yet from the Slow Burn.  But my resting heart rate has slowed since being on the Mercola 8's.  

Again, thanks for the note.

kevin

"Fred, Thanks for the reply. At my age--54--I have to reconcile myself to the inevitable slow physical decline. Slow Burn keeps me from overdoing the weights and self-injury. HIIT does the same for my cardio. Dr Mercola wrote that his HIIT protocal stimulates over 500% increase in Growth Hormone."

I don't believe that for a second. He would need to provide proof of this and you know he won't.

"In part because of this website I've quit most all meat and dairy."


WHAT? ALL meat?! That is an enormous mistake. Grass fed meats and wild caught fish are essential to your health. The dairy is fine.

"I admit to over-indulging in cookies and cakes this time of year. In the past it didn't matter because running 50-80 miles every week kept my weight under control. I've had to stop that due to a torn achilles; Vibram Five-Finger Shoes were the cause."

All I can say is running like that is terrible for your health hormonally and orthopedically.

"My comment about nothing new in the mirrors yet was a joke but the point is I'm not seeing any new muscles yet from the Slow Burn."

Your not eating any meat! How can you get benefits from any strength training program if you are not ingesting the necessary nutrients?

"But my resting heart rate has slowed since being on the Mercola 8's."

This doesn't mean a thing. I for one do not believe that a low RHR means improved health. In fact, I think quite the opposite.

I just tried doing push ups and body squats very slowly.  Although the body squats didn't seem very hard at all, after doing quite a few reps, I was sore.  I will continue this and see how it goes.

Fred Hahn said..  

I've quit most all meat and dairy."


WHAT? ALL meat?! That is an enormous mistake. Grass fed meats and wild caught fish are essential to your health. The dairy is fine.

"I admit to over-indulging in cookies and cakes this time of year. In the past it didn't matter because running 50-80 miles every week kept my weight under control. I've had to stop that due to a torn achilles; Vibram Five-Finger Shoes were the cause."

All I can say is running like that is terrible for your health hormonally and orthopedically.

"My comment about nothing new in the mirrors yet was a joke but the point is I'm not seeing any new muscles yet from the Slow Burn."

Your not eating any meat! How can you get benefits from any strength training program if you are not ingesting the necessary nutrients?

"But my resting heart rate has slowed since being on the Mercola 8's."

This doesn't mean a thing. I for one do not believe that a low RHR means improved health. In fact, I think quite the opposite.
  
Hi again Fred,

I'm sorry to argue but I could
cite plenty of studies showing the value of a lower resting heart rate.  That's basically the goal of all endurance athletes.  At high heart rates you're burning just glycogen.  At low heart rates you're burning mainly fats.  Trained marathon runners have such a low heart rate that they're burning mostly fat at speeds that have the rest of us still burning glycogen.  

I eat hi-protein veggies and supplement with B12 injections.  I'll have scrambled eggs once a week.  I'n not a tree-hugging vegan nutcase.  Like Clinton, I'm  trying to make up for a lifetime of poor eating habits.  For me that means no dairy,  no soy, very little sat fats, and once the silly season is over, no wheat products.  

kevin

"I'm sorry to argue but I could
cite plenty of studies showing the value of a lower resting heart rate."

Please do cite some.

"That's basically the goal of all endurance athletes. At high heart rates you're burning just glycogen. At low heart rates you're burning mainly fats. Trained marathon runners have such a low heart rate that they're burning mostly fat at speeds that have the rest of us still burning glycogen."

Please can you cite some full text papers that support this claim. Thanks.

Guys I've enjoyed the mental pingpong but it's lunch time and  the sun is shining for first time in weeks.  So I'm changing into my running shorts and going out to make some Vitamin D.  I just wish it wasn't 15 degrees but that's Wyoming.

kevin

Kevin - I don't think you're going to be able to make any vitamin D this time of year and at your latitude !

Anne, I got a 90 minute run, my face and legs are mildly sunburned.  At 7000ft altitude with no clouds or shade anywhere on the track I'm hoping for a lot of VitD.  But I wouldn't argue the point.  I run for other reasons and supplement with Vit D oil caps.

kevin

"@Anonymous said...
'As for two workouts per week versus five being a problem--now I've heard everything'.

Really? Never heard that before? ok then, go tell any of this kids he can exercise only 30 minutes per week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1malgZpYKn8"

Never heard of it--I guess I don't hang around a gym enough.

The little kids playing soccer is an example of what I meant when I said "go out and have some fun." Workout = strength training. Fun in this case = dance, soccer, skating, or whatever makes you enjoy working up a sweat.

I'm the only person at my gym doing slow, controlled lifts with my iPod tuned to a metronome. I get a lot of funny looks, which makes me chuckle to myself.

I'm happy with the results I've been getting in the two months I've been doing Fred's workout style, especially considering how little time it takes out of my week.

My one complaint is that it takes a lot of mental energy to be that focused for the duration of my workout. It was much easier to get to the gym when I knew I'd be doing a bunch of mindless reps and resting between sets while listening to music on my headphones. I'm also noticing how unfocused other people at the gym are, and the cardio people on the treadmills are suddenly driving me nuts.

I guess that's not really a complaint, just an observation. It makes me wonder what the atmosphere is like at Fred's gym. Too bad I don't live in New York.

Dr. Bill, I didn't know you were a Jersey boy. Gosh, we were practically neighbors back when you were young.

I've also been doing Fred's Slow Burn method for the last few months - only once a week, and I've only been doing it about 20 minutes. No changes on the scale (and I need changes, sob) but my jeans seem to get looser every day - and when I'm out going for birdwalks I find I have far more stamina than I have had in a long time.

Hi Kevin,

I'm sure the experts will correct me if I'm wrong, but the sun's ray's need to strike your skin at a particular angle for you to be able to make vitamin D, and that angle is not acute enough at northern latitudes in winter. Even though you can get sunburn in winter that is not the same part of the sun's rays which make vitamin D.

Hmm,  During the summer I run midday.  The sun is directly overhead and the tan is darkest on my shoulders and the tops of my feet;  I run in VFF sandals.  If an imaginary line directly overhead is zero degrees and the horizon is 90 degrees, this time of year the sun is never higher than about 45 degrees.  When running midday now the sun is hitting my face and legs at an angle similar to what it does during Summer.  I know I can have my Vit D levels tested.  I may do that soon.  

kevin

Appropriate to this Slow Burn thread, I'm a veterinarian practicing since 1984.

I was at the gym just finishing my SlowBurn arms and shoulders workout when the clinic called to say there was an emergency.  The workout involves using eight different machines.  When it's done I can barely lift my arms.  

I got to the clinic and found a patient I'd spayed two days ago had chewed out her stitches, all three layers and her intestines were hanging from the six inch long open wound.  The owner had come home for lunch and found her like that and rushed her to the clinic.

I took her right to surgery.  The owner stayed to watch.  Having just finished a Slow Burn workout I didn't have much control over my arms.  They shook like St Vitus Dance.  It took an effort of will it control my surgical tools as I debrided the raw wound, cleaned the exposed bowels and replaced them.  

As I worked I overheard the owner murmer to the nurse, "He really cares, doesn't he."

This morning, patient doing well.

I've done slow burn workouts - I've become convinced that the key is the amount of time that the muscle is working and to stimulate growth you need to work it until if is starting to fail.

If you do 10 quick reps you end up spending more of you time between reps rather than working out.

I do a mix these days - 8 quick reps followed by two ultra slow reps - until the muscle collapses.

Most of the folks in the gym are embarrassed to push to collapse - but that seems to be what stimulates growth.

Hi Fred:

I'm not familiar with your book but I plan on changing that.

I started resistance training for the first time 18 months ago.  I'm 54.  I apply the Body by Science concepts, however I've evolved my program to where I do one body part a week.  On a 6 week cycle I do lat pulldown, overhead press, leg press, seated row, chest press and leg press.  

I continue to see gains in TUL or load every workout.  

This with a paleo diet, has improved my overall fitness by an amazing degree.

Sifter said: I'd like to give Slow Burn a try, but the Ken Hutchins-style workout places are usually located in tony 'hoods like Lake Forest, IL, out of reach for the majority of us.

Exercise Coach has facilities in Lake Zurich, Buffalo Grove, and Arlington Heights IL, and features Super Slow style workouts.

I work out at a 24hr Fitness.  If there's an opposite to 'tony' that's probably it.

Fred,
How can 'slow burn' exercise benefit someone who is pre-diabetic, HAS NEVER BEEN OVERWEIGHT (and does not want to lose weight) but uses a combination of aerobic/resistance exercises along with low-carb eating to control blood sugar? Exercising only once or twice a week doesn't seem enough to do the job. I have never tried this type of exercise only read about it.

acanthusbk - I live in the the UK where there are no Slow Burn or Super Slow gym facilities. I just used Fred's book and asked him questions over the net, he was so helpful. When I went to a gym I found out how to use the machines correctly from a trainer there and then simply used the Slow Burn technique.

rmarie - in addition to other health problems I am atypical type 2 diabetic, thin, never been overweight, who eats very low carb Paleo diet. I do Slow Burn/Superslow twice a week and walk three or four miles a day. My blood glucose control is excellent.

Ann, thank you for your very helpful and informative answers! Maybe Fred has something to add as well.

"How can 'slow burn' exercise benefit someone who is pre-diabetic, HAS NEVER BEEN OVERWEIGHT (and does not want to lose weight) but uses a combination of aerobic/resistance exercises along with low-carb eating to control blood sugar?"

Well it helps the way any resistance training program helps. IMHO, SB is a better way to perform your resistance training program. I also strongly believe from years of experience that high intensity resistance training produces better results than high volume, low intensity training.

"Exercising only once or twice a week doesn't seem enough to do the job. I have never tried this type of exercise only read about it."

Twice a week, not once, is best. If you have never done it then how do you know it won't do the trick? And yes you should stay active too.

Now when you say low carb, how low carb are you? If you are pre-diabetic, I wouldn't go above 30-60 grams of carbs a day all from nonstarchy veggies.

45 year old Bernard Hopkin's bulky (but undefined) body boxed against the sculpted 18 year younger light heavy weight division champion in Canada Sat. night.

Many don't like boxing and have their reasons. The muscle response involved is very impressive though.

Maybe someone can tell me if any
of the boxers' important training steps would be akin to slow burns.

"45 year old Bernard Hopkin's bulky (but undefined) body boxed against the sculpted 18 year younger light heavy weight division champion in Canada Sat. night.

Many don't like boxing and have their reasons. The muscle response involved is very impressive though.

Maybe someone can tell me if any
of the boxers' important training "steps would be akin to slow burns.

Not sure what you mean by this Mito.

Slow Burn is a way to lift weights. Boxing is boxing.

I think this was addressed in the edition of Slow Burn that I have.  Weight lifters can become as large as NFL linemen but the weight lifters don't have the explosive power of those linemen.  The lineman are training those fast twitch fibers while weight lifters aren't.   Slow Burn works all muscle fibers.  I could be wrong.  I don't have the book handy.

I think this was addressed in the edition of Slow Burn that I have.  Weight lifters can become as large as NFL linemen but the weight lifters don't have the explosive power of those linemen.  The lineman are training those fast twitch fibers while weight lifters aren't.   Slow Burn works all muscle fibers.  I could be wrong.  I don't have the book handy.

Supposedly all boxers move weights around in some way sometimes in their training regimen. I've seen promotional shots of guys on their backs slowly pushing oversize tires up with their legs.

Explosive ability is a good description of a special capability they'd want to develop. A counter punch is often a fight changer. I'd like to hear if slow burn method might improve any aptitude over another weight technique.

If this is too far off topic or doen't merit discussion there is no need to respond. I don't box, but often see physique disparities in contenders in a match.

((I always think of lifting weights as a solution to our contemporary lifestyle - it meets a need and serves individual goals. Nobody considered it where I worked as a longshoreman; we man handled each sack and box in jumbles using giant rope nets inside and outside fetid holds of ships.))

You play Xbox?

The advice given by thyroid docs, at least the kind that understand more about it than average and are willing to prescribe Armour, etc, is that you should reduce goitrogen intake while you are first starting treatment for hypothyroidism and/or iodine deficiency, then they're OK to have more of in your diet. The goitrogenic effect of most of them is minimised or negated by cooking anyway. Mine did advise that soy could be a bit more problematic and you should avoid consuming any within four hours of taking your thyroid medication, if you swallow the medication instead of taking it sublingually.

Very interesting!  I was hoping you would follow up your iodine/goiter posts with something about goitrogens.  I'd like to read up on the human trials, if there's anything more than abstracts available.  Any urls handy?  Also, just wanted to say I really appreciate your blog, and thank you.

I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and my endocrinologist (who is fantastic; she titrates my dose to my symptoms, and has me on Armor) has suggested that I want to take the following two precautions around goitrogens:

a) Don't eat the "biggies" such as soy within four hours of taking my thyroid medication.

b) Eat them moderately and fairly steadily; a serious pig-out on raw broccoli or edamame after weeks without may cause a swing, but a normal diet that includes them is no big deal.  This means that I actively want to include these things in my diet (which is good, because I both like them and they are good for me.)  If I keep the amount steady then we can just balance my dose against any goitrogenic effect they might have.

My understanding of the cruciferous vegetable family is that their goitrogenic effect is negated or at least minimized by cooking or fermentation.

Hi Dr Davis,

FYI - in case you are not aware, the home testing kit shopping area is not working.  At least I've tried ordering with two different computers with out luck.

Flit--

Thanks for your comments.

I like option "b", the most practical and logical.

Anon--

I believe that the lab test area should be working now.

We are in the process of transferring all files over to a new website and servers. There may therefore be momentary glitches that shouldn't last more than a few minutes while the programmers make the switch.

On the bright side, the new website will be more user-friendly.

Max--

The easiest way is to just go to PubMed.gov and enter the relevant search terms.

You will find oodles of studies, many in mice or in vitro preparations, a few in humans. You can specify which--mouse vs. human, for instance, in your choice of search terms.

The researchers claim that the findings provide little evidence that "in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function."
The researchers also stated that "there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate." They also claim that "some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients."

This study is suggesting that soy is safe -- unless you have a thyroid condition, or iodine deficiency. It also suggests that soy foods can inhibit absorption of thyroid medication.
The study doesn't address the fact that it's estimated that as much as one-fourth of the U.S. population is now iodine deficient, and that the number is on the rise. At the same time, many millions of Americans also have undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid disease. At minimum, if you accept the premise of this study, that means that more than 75 million Americans with iodine deficiency may be at risk of thyroid problems from soy consumption. If you include the up to 60 million Americans who have a diagnosed or undiagnosed thyroid condition, almost half of all Americans could be at risk of soy-related thyroid problems.

It's also troubling to note that the author of this study -- and several other recent studies claiming soy is not a danger to the thyroid, is Mark Messina, PhD. Messina, though not a medical doctor, also goes by the name "Dr. Soy." Messina had been in charge of grant funding at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), where he oversaw a $3 million grant for soy studies. Soon after he left NIH, he was hired to serve on the scientific advisory boards of both the United Soybean Board, and international soy agribusiness Archer Daniels Midland. He still serves on both scientific advisory boards as a paid advisor. In addition to his work on these advisory boards, Messina is a consultant to the United Soybean Board and editor of its soy-related newsletter, and serves as a paid speaker and consultant to promote the positive benefits of soy for the United Soybean Board's "Soy Connection.". Messina has also published a number of books promoting soy. The "Political Friendster" website, which tracks corporate influence, has documented the close relationship between Messina and the various corporate players in the soy industry.

the full 5 page article can be read at.
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm?nl=1

Help, I am so confused!

I have a goiter and nodules diagnosed via an ultrasound screen. I have an appt with my MD to take the next step to do lab etc. I am hoping the goiter is caused by iodine deficiency and not Hashimotos. I have been reading about supplementing with iodine but some folks say take lots (12+ mgs) others say taking more will exacerbate a hypothyroid condition. I have been taking kelp capsules 4 daily supplying 1600 mcg. I have been tempted to up the dose but don't want to mess things up. Should I wait until test results come back, then if it is negative for Hashi's go ahead and do mega doses? or should I not be afraid to supplement?

Thanks for this blog, and thanks for all the intelligent comments through-out. I have learned so much.

Laura in Arizona

Hi again Dr Davis,

I was the one that wrote earlier about having troubles ordering testing kits.  The system still is having trouble - at least with my computers, at home and work.  Thought you might want to know.  
The error occurs after pressing the submit order button.  

Below is a cut and paste of what the error says.  Hope this helps!    

Server Error in '/' Application.
Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.Runtime.InteropServices.COMException: Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.

Source Error:

Line 146:
Line 147:    Public Function ProcessCC(ByVal PaymentObject As PaymentObjCC) As ArrayList
Line 148:        Dim pfpro As New PFPro
Line 149:        Dim Response As String
Line 150:        Dim pCtlx As Integer


Source File: E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainApp_CodePayflowProPFProProcessor.vb    Line: 148

Stack Trace:

[COMException (0x80040154): Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.]
   PayFlowPro.PFPro..ctor() +13
   PFProProcessor.ProcessCC(PaymentObjCC PaymentObject) in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainApp_CodePayflowProPFProProcessor.vb:148
   Checkout.CompleteOrderCC() in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainproductsCheckout.aspx.vb:970
   Checkout.btnSubmitOrder_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainproductsCheckout.aspx.vb:1113
   System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e) +111
   System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +110
   System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.System.Web.UI.IPostBackEventHandler.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +10
   System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(IPostBackEventHandler sourceControl, String eventArgument) +13
   System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(NameValueCollection postData) +36
   System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain(Boolean includeStagesBeforeAsyncPoint, Boolean includeStagesAfterAsyncPoint) +1565


Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:2.0.50727.3082; ASP.NET Version:2.0.50727.3082

What a great resource!

How about humans? The few trials conducted in humans have shown little or no effect. In most instances, the adverse effects of goitrogens have been eliminated with supplemental iodine. In other words, goitrogens seem to exert their ill thyroid effects when iodine deficiency is present. Restore iodine . . . no more goitrogens (with rare exceptions).

ABOUT THE QUESRCETIN has also been identified as a goitrogen (Giuliani C et al 2008).

WOW, this is the most detailed information I have seen so far  online about the Resveratrol and flavonoids being goitrogenic,

I have been searching and searching, as I just had read briefly of an experiment with rats that showed Resveratrol (red wine + grape seeds extract) was causing the thyroid gland to enlarge
I really appreciate you posting this info

I have hypothyroidism, I take small doses of Armour and it really works great for me, and was taking Resveratrol too, (which by the way, it seemed to help me a lot, especially with giving strength and gloss to my hair)
So when i heard about this experiment i was shocked. Then I found out that even all kind of fruits are goitrogenic (as you point out) and tea and greens and garlic and onion and potatoes and beans, but above all, fruit and grapes.

Is so hopeless, I in fact, by fear, suspended the resveratrol, and now, and is funny, as now I am experiencing some minor hair loss, I am sure due to that I stopped taking this amazing supplement which was helping my hair to grow strongly

So I am so confused, my doctor as most of doctors, do not have a clue, as there is no enough info about all this and also no willingness to look into this research as well

He told me to stop taking it
But as you point out, then we should also stop eating then, as it seems that for one reason or another ,, all food is goitrogenic, soy, brassica greens, all greens, and veggies and fruit and also chickens and animals that seems are fed with goitrogenic grass and seeds
So what choice do we have?
ALSO I found this experiment on same PubMed which seems contradictory, I am not a doctor but it seems that it helps to add iodide (which is in iodine)  to the thyroid???

IS there any MD on this site who might throw some light on this???

or anyone here who has read more on this quercetin or Resveratrol? or knows about where to find more info about real evidence that flavonoids really work that way in humans????
(by the way thank you for posting the Giuliani experiment, was that on humans or rats?)

Does anyone knows of a good medical website or any that provides more information about this confusing subject?
Please, help, let me know,
Thank you
Nella

OOPS
about the QUERCETIN

here is that experiment URL
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20151827

Spontaneous human Combustion is something that has always captured all my attention. Thank you for the interesting post, it's been a real pleasure reading it.

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