I suspect gluten sensitivity could play a role in many thyroid cases.  Celiac disease associates with autoimmune thyroid problems.  About 12% of Americans are verifiably gluten sensitive.  The number may actually be much higher if you include people who have a less pronounced immune reaction to gluten.  What do you think of this idea?

That is very concerning. What are the typical symptoms of a low thyroid. I must get it checked.

Dr.Davis,
   This post has convinced me that
your eventual protocol will be THE
standard MO in just a few short
years.Many thanks for your blog.

Now the question is, how to get a doctor to treat you for low thyroid function?  I went from doctor to doctor for a number of years complaining of most of the clinical symptoms of low thyroid.  Since my labs were "within the normal range", not one of them would prescribe any form of thyroid.

Finally, in desperation, I went to a "wellness" doctor who did put me on a trial of Armour thyroid.  MAGIC!  I suddenly had some energy, the gray clouds lifted, and I was finally able to begin to lose some weight... which eventually led to a 50 pound weight loss, which had been impossible before treatment.

Unfortunately, by then I had achieved a heart scan score which put me in the high 90th percentile for a 55 year old woman.  Thanks docs!!!

The average doctor out there seeing patients is still treating based solely on lab numbers, NOT on the (obvious) clinical symptoms sitting in front of them.  Such a patient is far more likely to be given a script for an antidepressant... I had plenty of doctors who were MORE than willing to write scripts for those!

I hope the TYP treatment protocol will eventually begin to make a dent in this situation.  I now know that years of untreated low thyroid certainly contributed to my high heart scan score.

Thank you, Dr. Davis, for Track Your Plaque!

Dr:

I have recently been reading your blog lately, and referring lots of readers from my own blog.

I'd be interested to get your "take" on this -- not diagnosis.

'Bout 18 months ago, I was at 230 (5'10) and looked awful. I was on Omeprezol for years for gastric reflux, a variety of prescription meds since early 20s for seasonal sinus allergies, culminating finally in the daily, year round squirts of Flonaise-esque sprays (the best for control without noticeable side-effects), and finally, Levothroid for about the last 7 years or so, as I had elevated TSH (around 9ish).

My BP was regularly 145-160 / 95-110.

I decided to get busy. I modified diet somewhat, cutting lots of junk carbs, and began working out -- brief, intense, heavy twice per week. BP began coming down immediately, such that within only a couple of weeks I was borderline rather than full blown high. Then after about six months, a year ago, I went to full blown low-carb, high fat, cutting out all grains, sugar, veg oils, etc, and replacing with animal fats, coconut, olive oil. You know the drill. Then, first of the year I felt great and simply stopped all meds, including the thyroid. I also began intermittent fasting, twice per week, and for a twist, I always do my weight lifting in some degree of fast, even as much as 30 hours.

That's when the weight really started pouring off. Take a look:

http://www.freetheanimal.com/root/2008/09/periodic-photo-progress-update.html

http://www.freetheanimal.com/root/2008/08/faceoff.html

In July I figured it's about time for a physical. Here's the lipid panel, demonstrating am HDL of 106 and Try of 47, great ratios all around:

http://www.freetheanimal.com/root/2008/07/lipid-pannel.html

However, my TSH was even higher -- 16ish. It seems odd that I was able to lose 40-50 pounds of fat (10-15 pounds of lean gain for a 30 pound net loss at that time -- now an additional 10 pounds net loss).

One disclosure is that I was drinking too much, almost daily, and quite a bit (gotta save some vices...). Anyway, I'm at the point now where I want to drill down. I know I need to see an endocrinologist and have T3 and T4 looked at, but in advance, I wanted to see if the recent changes I've made could make a difference:

1. Stopped all alcohol.
2. Stopped most dairy, except ghee and heavy cream, and cheese is now used as a "spice," i.e., tiny quantities -- no more milk.
3. 6,000 IU Vit D per day.
4. 3 grams salmon oil, 2 grams cod liver oil.
5. Vit K2 Menatetrenone (MK-4) -- side story: getting off grains reversed gum disease for which I have had two surgeries, then supplementing the K2 DISSOLVED calculus on my teeth within days -- hygienist and dentist are dumbfounded. Stephan (Whole Health Source), who comments here, has an amazing series on K2.

Well, that's about it. I'd be interested in your general take on this.

Stephan--

I suspect that there is indeed a connection.

I personally feel that wheat, for a variety of reasons, has NO place in the diet whatsoever.

I agree with anonymous. It is incredibly difficult to find a doctor who'll will diagnose and treat hypothyroid, whether mild or not. There are many people whose FT3 and FT4 levels are low (whether the lab considers them in range or not) yet their TSH is "normal" either because their pituitary gland has not responded to the situation yet or because the lab range for normal is outdated.

Many labs still use a TSH range of 0.3 - 5.0, when the American Association of Endocrinologists has recommended 3.5 be the upper limit, with many individual thyroid specialists pointing out that the healthy population's TSH readings have a mode of about 1.0 and a TSH of 2.0, or even 1.5 in older people, can be considered suspect when there are symptoms. And of course if someone has hypopituitarism the TSH range has no meaning at all.

So we have an unknown number of people in various stages of dysfunction because many doctors aren't knowledgeable about what the TSH reading means. Not to mention issues like T3 resistance. They are often misdiagnosed as having chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, depression, and so on, or just told to go lose weight. I know personally of one lady who went to her doctor - she is overweight, 46, had the symptoms of early hypothyroid, and tested for high cholesterol and elevated blood sugar. The doctor told her she had diabetes and wanted her to begin metformin. Luckily, she went for a second opinion and low thyroid levels were found. She's feeling much better now with T4/T3 combo therapy.

There are also a lot of hypothyroid cases that aren't receiving adequate treatment. Some people receive relief with synthetic T4 replacement, some need a combination of T3 and T4, and others seem to need dessicated thyroid (eg Armour). Go to any thyroid support group and you will find people desperate for relief, their doctors are telling them their Synthroid is adequate, they must just be depressed or not eating well. Often the person will need to be treated for adrenal or pituitary function as well - as you have stated the hormones are all linked.

If anyone believes they are having thyroid problems, do your best to shop around for a doctor who believes in testing Free T3 and Free T4 thyroid hormones and treating based on symptoms not strict lab results. Doctors who are both traditional practitioners as well as having an interest in "holistic" or "alternative" medicine may be the best place to look. But be wary of alternative health practitioners who claim they can cure hypothyroid with diet or homeopathic remedies, etc. A certain diet free of goitrogens will certainly help support your recovery but treating your hormones is necessary.

R Nikoley,

Thank you so much for your efforts in promoting TYP at your informative health site! I've been keeping up with your blog posts and love your approach to optimal health and exercise regimens. Congrats with the incredible body recomposition shifts.  

Your experience with butter oil and vitamins ADEK2 are esp informative for me.

Your TG + HDLs ROCK!

I'm stopping/limiting alcohol as well -- I think the health benefits can be immense.

I have some questions for you:
--Have you considered getting a heartscan eval?
--Have you considered all the causes of Hashimoto's/HLA DR5 allele association? (it's an autoimmune disease just as HDL B27 is assoc with alkylosing spondylitis in many men; my sister had Grave's which is HDL DR 3 associated)
--Have you had the vitamin D level evaluted? goal 25(OH)D 60-80 ng/ml
--Have you had iodine testing? Deficiency leads to Hypothyroidism
--Have you considered the role of casein as a food allergen (subsequently triggering the immune system to continue to attack the thyroid gland -- effectively killing it off like Oklahoma bombings)? Cream has casein -- though minute enough to trigger autoimmunity reactions.
--Have you considered resumption of Levothroid or Armour Thyroid to control TSH to goal 1.0 to prevent further inflammatory responses?
--Other factors related to Hashimoto triggers are: stress, high cortisol, adrenal depletion, zinc deficiency, iodine deficiency, B-vitamin deficiencies,  vit ADEK deficiencies, food allergies (wheat barley rye corn/maize egg whites casein), heavy metal accumulation (mercury, lead, etc).

Hope that helps! I find it spectacular you cured your own gum disease.

-G

R Nikoley,

Thank you so much for your efforts in promoting TYP at your informative health site! I've been keeping up with your blog posts and love your approach to optimal health and exercise regimens. Congrats with the incredible body recomposition shifts.  

Your experience with butter oil and vitamins ADEK2 are esp informative for me.

Your TG + HDLs ROCK!

I'm stopping/limiting alcohol as well -- I think the health benefits can be immense.

I have some questions for you:
--Have you considered getting a heartscan eval?
--Have you considered all the causes of Hashimoto's/HLA DR5 allele association? (it's an autoimmune disease just as HDL B27 is assoc with alkylosing spondylitis in many men; my sister had Grave's which is HDL DR 3 associated)
--Have you had the vitamin D level evaluted? goal 25(OH)D 60-80 ng/ml
--Have you had iodine testing? Deficiency leads to Hypothyroidism
--Have you considered the role of casein as a food allergen (subsequently triggering the immune system to continue to attack the thyroid gland -- effectively killing it off like Oklahoma bombings)? Cream has casein -- though minute enough to trigger autoimmunity reactions.
--Have you considered resumption of Levothroid or Armour Thyroid to control TSH to goal 1.0 to prevent further inflammatory responses?
--Other factors related to Hashimoto triggers are: stress, high cortisol, adrenal depletion, zinc deficiency, iodine deficiency, B-vitamin deficiencies,  vit ADEK deficiencies, food allergies (wheat barley rye corn/maize egg whites casein), heavy metal accumulation (mercury, lead, etc).

Hope that helps! I find it spectacular you cured your own gum disease.

-G

Dr.Davis no where on your site do I see the importance of Vitamin C mentioned.Are you aware of the work of Linus Pauling concerning Vit C and the amino acid Lysine on calcification?
Paulibng summarised that subliminal Scurvy was to blame and the RDA for Vitamin C is far too low.
Ps. He did win a Nobel Prize for his research.
Many thanks for a very interesting and informative site.

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/vitcheart.htm

Two things;

1. Dr. Davis, can you provide any evidence that supplementing D3 will decrease arterial calcification? From what I've read, increased D3 (especially absent K1 menaquinone/K2) leads to increased calcification. It seems quite likely that the low levels of 25D3 observed in people with heart disease may be due to overconversion to calcitriol rather than lack of intake.  

2. Anon wrote; "Dr.Davis no where on your site do I see the importance of Vitamin C mentioned."

Ascorbate uses the same transporter as glucose (sodium mediated, IIRC.) Most animals make ascorbate from glucose and if your blood sugar is high, your body won't absorb vitamin C. So while mild scurvy may very well be a component of diabetes, it's questionable how well increasing oral intake will fix that problem, if the nutrient is simply not absorbed.

I've come to believe my MANY health problems are hormone related but it's extremely difficult getting effectively tested and treated. I finally have some symptoms lessened by desiccated thyroid and am trying to sneak bioidentical low-dose estradiol, progesterone, DHEA past my migraine sensors. Hormones seem to be the most basic part of your system--if they could be in proper balance.

I keep hoping nutritional advice will get simpler, but it seems like to know what to have for dinner we need a lot of blood tests and a very savvy doctor to interpret them.

Dr. D,

Get the ldl-fructose connection but still confused about the small particle ldl/Lp(a) and eating fats.  Is it beneficial or not to include "good" fats like olive oil, coconut oil,butter, grass-fed meats, etc. when you have a the small ldl/Lp(a)pattern?  Being a woman and not the skinny male, I do think my pattern is genetic and I'm doing all of your recommendations for diet/supplements and want to be sure I am not making things worse by including fats in my diet.

Thanks.

Jan

~Peter

amen.

regarding fructose, maybe eating fruit instead of sugary junk for dessert and whatnot is the way to go. i can't bring myself to believe that, in the context of a truly simple whole-food diet, an amount of fruit each day is going to contribute to future ills.

~Dr Davis, i wonder if someone who eats a simple paleo diet free of sweetner, added fats and oils, dairy, legumes and grass seeds, and eats plenty of fruit, fatty grass fed meat, fish, greens, and some tubers has an increased risk of s-ldl compared to an average nutritionally ignorant patient who eats a typical SAD and is now trying to "clean it up" a bit.

just musing aloud.

Jan and Shel--

Yes, fats are good. We've just got to be selective in our fats.

My recent comments about "genetic small LDL" were not meant to scare everyone off of fat, but just to make the simple point that there is a subset of people with small LDL whose pattern responds somewhat differently than most other people.

...sorry. i meant to say "...has a 'lowered' risk of s-ldl compared to..."

I notice that you don't include actual measured TOTAL LDL cholesterol. If this is substantially different from the calculated total LDL cholesterol, then your point about the inaccuracy of the Friedewald calculation is proven. As it is, it seems to me that you've merely shown that it may not be very useful (because size, density, and degree of oxidation may be more important), rather than actually inaccurate.

the stanhope study is only useful for those who are already fat and getting fatter and considering supplementing their already excessive intake with fructose sweetened beverages.

self experiment 2 months ago lasting 5 weeks: as much fruit as i wanted and more (i wanted to make sure i got at least my normal intake of approx. 2300 cals) and whey protein to get about 100 g protein/day. my calorie intake per day came to averarge approx. 2700 cals. maybe if i account for fiber the actual calories would be closer to normal.  with that amount of fruit i was consuming i was constantly full (uncomfortbably so at times). i was basically force feeding. i didn't gain weight, i still have six pack so there was no undesirable body recompostion. pure fructose consumption may have no associated feedback mechanism  and induce hunger as stanhope study states, but we can't say fruit does the same thing. i think the addition of fruit to diet maybe helpful to those with weight issues as it could displace more calorie dense stuff sweetened with sugar and has added fat(eg doughnuts, cookies). did i screw up my lipids? don't know.  may be when a study comes along that induces bad things using only fruit as the fructose source i'll know. my point: may be we shouldn't worry about SOME fruit in the diet. may be if i continued experiment longer i would get fat. i'll never know because the diet was unsustainable. turds were monstrous, but passable with more effort than i'm accustomed to or desire.

Professor Lustig hates fructose yet claims that it`s toxic effetcs are blunted by fiber in fruits versus sweetened beverages. Obviously the speed of ingestion is somewhat critical in case of fructose.

I took 7 eggs, spinach leaves torn up small, cut up green and blond peppers, and dropped them all in my cast iron pan on the stove top with some bacon grease.  It would have got some sausage, bacon, ham, and/or onion but I didn't have any.  I called it an omelet but I think it would taste a lot like the quiche here.  (ate it all by myself so needless to say, i'm not hungry and wont be eating lunch)

I always shy away from this type of thing, thinking of the oxidation that is occurring with the cholesterol in the eggs.   Is this unreasonable to consider, when contemplating eggs that have been in my fridge, scrambled, for days?   Same reason, I don't eat scrambled eggs on hotel buffet lines - also with those there is a higher likelihood that the eggs were made from powdered, also oxidized, fats.

I'm with Jonathan. fried eggs > baked eggs. baking eggs makes them spongy.

Matt B - I'm not sure I follow. Surely sealing the eggs away from the air in a tight container fixes this.

My favorite breakfast: deconstructed omelet

1-2 eggs
finely diced veggies
spices
butter or lard
water or broth

Melt 2T butter or lard in a fry pan on medium heat.
Add spices and let cook for a couple minutes to bring out the flavor.  If you have minced onion or garlic, add these now.
Add enough water or broth to cover the bottom of the pan, about 1/8 to 1/4 cup.  
Add the veggies and cook for 2-5 minutes, until just softened and the color bright.
Push the veggies to the side of the pan, add a little water, broth, or cooking fat if necessary and drop 1-2 eggs in the middle of the pan.  Cover and the eggs should set in 2-4 minutes.  
Layer the veggies on the bottom of a plate and top with the eggs or serve them side by side.

If you don't want to bother with veggies, eggs cooked in chicken broth and/or lard are delicious!  The egg whites soak up the flavor of the cooking liquid.

Eggs got a bad rap in the 80s and 90s for having too much cholesterol. Should we not worry about ingestion of cholesterol as much as creation of cholesterol in the liver? I could eat eggs 4x a day, and lots of them each time if it doesn't spike my numbers.

-- Boris

@n, I believe some oxidation would occur with the exposed yolks.  It's never going to be air tight.  Are my concerns totally unfounded?  

http://www.cheeseslave.com/2009/08/28/what-passes-for-food-in-america/  

@Boris, I am all for consuming cholesterol, just not oxidized cholesterol.  My breakfast many days is 3 hard boiled eggs with butter

If I pre-cook eggs, I only do it hard boiled.   fried eggs >>>>> baked eggs, but when I'm trying to get out the door by 5:30, fried don't work so well

Hi,
Would someone please explain the "oxidation" your speaking of?
Thank you.
Tom

I just tried the recipe with most of the same ingredients .... delicious!
I think this will work with most any veggies.  I'm looking forward to experimenting.
One note: I baked it in an uncovered dish.  It was just a bit watery on the bottom.  I think it would have been more so in a covered dish.

hi dr davis.

you've done amazing coverage for wheat. would you consider exploring the murky world of milk as well?

it will be great to have some clarification on that too!

For convenience, we bake them in mini-muffin pans and freeze them in single serving bags.

has this turned into a recipies site?

Sally Fallon says scrambling eggs does NOT oxidize the cholesterol:

http://kellythekitchenkop.com/2009/05/oxidized-cholesterol-sally-fallon-answers-a-reader-question.html

According to F. Guadiola et el in the book "Cholesterol and Phytoisterol Oxidation Products: Analysis Occurance, and Biological Effects." pg 129, Eggs that are fried and boiled have been reported to have oxidized cholesterol.

You can preview this in google books.

I guess I'm a little lost.  I just signed up for TYP to read articles and forum posts, with many of the articles alluding that it is best to keep saturated fat low, but these blog posts seem to contradict that?

Changing or evolution of ideas?

Most health advice says to lower Sat. fat intake.  That was based on some really crappy science and number fudging.  Books such as ones by Uffe Ravnskov and many others tear that science to bits.  The more cholesterol and Sat. fat you eat, the less the body makes.  It's pretty well regulated.  The reason it goes up in the first place is because it is protective.  It's used to repair the body.  It went up because wheat consumption and too many carbs raised the abrasive sugar in you veins and caused inflammation for which the cholesterol has to fix.  Fixing the inflammation lowers the cholesterol.
Eating sat fat (most of the fats we use as replacements are high in inflammation causing Omega 6) also helps raise you HDL while the LDL will go down or at least change to a fluffy pattern.  Totals shouldn't be 200 or less like they say now.  240 is quite normal and people with 600 live really long normal lives.

I think baking them doesn't make them spongy as much as the whisking them before you put them in there.  I still prefer them skillet scrambled.

Thanks for the insight Jonathan.  I'm an ER/ICU nurse of 15 years with a few years of Nutrition studies before I went to nursing school.  Unfortunately, my brain is now just ridding itself of it's current dogma as I research this new 'trend' and approach.  

I've been spending about 7 hours a day (I'm working in a slow ER;)) reading this site, and others like it.  Great resource and amazing how we got lead down the wrong path for the last 30 some odd years.

I've been eating low carb for the last months, and I started experiencing realy bad muscle aches teh day after workouts. Like I feel my triceps and chest are burning under the skin.
So after last workout I added some extra carbs and aches are gone.
so the question is... how do you deal with muscle aches on a low carb diet?

The Egg bake looks like an interesting recipe. I just bought two dozen eggs and am readying the kitchen. Can't wait to try it. Thanks for the post and Lisa for the idea!

Dear Dr. Davis,

This blog is full of statements and advice that seem to seek to debunk conventional, established thinking about heart issues. Given that we are talking about extremely serious matters, do you not think that the least you can do is to let us know whether:

1. You have published research backing the advice you give on your blog,
2. Your work has been peer reviewed and
3. Where to find them.

By not doing so, every reader of your blog will feel entitled to utter totally unsubstantiated statements such  as these two in this post: "That was based on some really crappy science and number fudging" (Jonathan) or "my brain is now just ridding itself of it's current dogma" (Anonymous).

^^^^

we are all the peers of each other here and have reviewd this advise by testing it on ourselves.

you are welcome to be a 'peer reviewer' yourself and 'report' your 'findings' through a simple comment on this blog.

lets keep the bureaucracy and red tape out, and figure out for ourselves what works.

learn to listen to your body, that is the best peer review!

Muscle aches.  Hmm...  I get sore after HIT but always though I was supposed to.  I only lift once a week though so I have plenty of time to replenish stores of glucose.  You my want to add some fruit like a peach or apple post work out (shouldn't need much) along with some post workout protein.

Conventional thinking has to be right because it is conventional.  So a drug manufacturer sponsors a trial, they work the numbers to match what they thought it should say, hand this screwed up data to a peer panel that never tested this stuff themselves, and now it is accurate "peer reviewed" advice to give to 100% of the people on this planet.
I'll stick to thought that God knew what he was doing when we were created and that our bodies have cholesterol for a reason.  If saying I believe in God makes me unscientific, I don't care.  I know what works for me (lost 70 lbs and counting, sugar is under control, can do 5+ mile hikes in the mountains even though I'm still 285 lbs, no longer take Prilosec at all, and feel strong as an ox).
If it was two of us low-carbers finding improvements in health then maybe there would be room for dispute but we are thousands strong.
Why is it the people how actually find what works have to prove themselves and the people who push ideas that haven't worked in 40 years get to stand and point fingers.  I believe in what I learn myself, not what is forced upon me.

Really!...Do you subscribe to Pal & Jonathan statements, Dr. Davis?

I find it odd that requests for publications and references comes in a recipe post.

Point taken. This is also a blog, not an encyclopedia. While I try to point out the science where it exists and is appropriate, much of what I say here is based on personal observations, not always quantified. That's why I call it The Heart Scan Blog, not The Heart Scan Encyclopedia.

The Guadiola book from 2002 referred to by anon above is very interesting.

From the table on p125 of cholesterol oxidation product in egg products:

pasturized, uncooked egg - 3 ug/g
fried 1 min - 84
fried 3 min - 124
boiled 3 min - 128
boiled 10 min - 203

I wonder what effect temp has on these numbers. That is, cooking at a temp lower that boiling or what you'd trypically fry an egg at.

My point exactly, Dr. Davis. If your blog were about recipes and cookery, I wouldn't have even bothered to raise the issue. As far as I know, cookery has not reached the status of science ...not yet anyway!

According to your own profile in this blog, you practise cardiology, and so one imagines that both your writings and opinions are informed by scientific methods. And when that is not the case, and when what you are providing is an opinion, even if it is an informed opinion, it is your professional duty to let your readers know that what you are saying is, in your own words, based on personal observations.

And that is perfectly legitimate, you are of course entitled to your own opinions. But when what you write about and the comments you make might have a impact on the health of those readers who trust your opinions, because you are a practising cardiologist, then your opinions must adhere to scientific principles. And if what you say and write about has not been scientifically demonstrated, then you should expressed it unambiguously.

I have a serious heart condition, and believe you me, when it comes to life or death matters, I do not consult the cookery pages. Nor do I seek advice from an astrologer either.

^^^

you have a serious heart condition because of your trust in 'scientific principles' which is how it should be.

but sir what do you mean by that phrase? just complex sounding gibberish stretched and distorted through endless loops of political and monetary  interets called the 'peer review' process?

you are welcome to unravel the heart mysteries here yourself but do let Dr Davis share his observations without choking this channel for others by your demands for your version of the 'peer review' process!

i like the simple and effective approach here!

Thanks!

Anon said "I have a serious heart condition, and believe you me, when it comes to life or death matters, I do not consult the cookery pages. Nor do I seek advice from an astrologer either."

Last time I checked this wasn't the doctor's office.

Either you're a troll or you haven't grasped the concept of a blog.

@Anonymous:

You obviously have a need for "authoritarian" documentation to sooth your inability to think for yourself.  Why do you continue to post here other than to stir up contoversy and post snide Ad Hominums?
Clearly you are trolling, and that says all that needs be said about your pompous and officious personality.
I for one will now ignore you and I hope that everyone else will also.
Take your pathetic and disengenuous comments somewhere with your own kind where you can all feed on each other's tiny egos, and mean and nasy outlooks on everything.
No one asked you to come here, so leave.  You bring nothing of value to the discussions here.

I have nothing against the blog. You are free to think whatever you want and your beliefs are not my concern. Just do not try to present as a fact what is just an opinion. At least Jonathan, one of your neighbours a couple of comments before yours, is more candid when he says: "I'll stick to thought that God knew what he was doing when we were created and that our bodies have cholesterol for a reason." I rest my case.

Jonathan said:
"Eating sat fat (most of the fats we use as replacements are high in inflammation causing Omega 6) also helps raise you HDL while the LDL will go down or at least change to a fluffy pattern. Totals shouldn't be 200 or less like they say now. 240 is quite normal and people with 600 live really long normal lives."

Dr. Davis said in an older post:

"If, on the other hand, your small LDL is genetically programmed, then saturated fat will increase small LDL.  In other words, saturated fat tends to increase the dominant or genetically-determined form of LDL. If your dominant genetically-determined form is small, then saturated fat increases small LDL particles."

Dr Davis also mentioned somewhere (can't find it at the moment) that saturated fat causes inflammation.

So I'd say that there is still conflicting reports out there and moderation again wins the day.

Meanwhile in this post we have the suggestion to consume large amounts of eggs which contain saturated fat. Safe for everyone?

I am curious: just what consists of a typical day of  meals for you? And what is causes "oxidized ldl"?

About the muscle aches...

A little bit of soreness is to be expected, especially after a hard workout, change of routine, or starting a routine after a long break.  That said, if you're not consuming adequate calories, your body will use the protein for fuel instead of for repairing/rebuilding your muscles.  Carbohydrate will spare the protein (again, assuming adequate calories are consumed) as well as replace glycogen stores.  Try just bumping up your calories, but if you want to continue the carbs just make sure you consume a carb/protein snack within an hour of your workout and don't overtrain.

First off, LDL is not the horrible guy everybody thinks of it as.  You have to have it.  It has a job to do.  LDL helps fight infections as well as transport needed fuel through the blood.  You just want the bigger size pattern so it doesn't oxidize as quickly.
Sat fat consumption doesn't fix the pattern directly.  It allows for less calories from carbs which helps fix the pattern.  It does seem to help raise HDL no matter how the person's genetics create LDL.  Along with the less carbs causing lower Trig, the HDL to Trig ratio is much improved.
Your body stores excess as a high % of sat fat to burn later.  Which means in order to use those stores, you have to release it into the blood stream.  What's the difference in that and eating it?
As for inflammatory, I've not seen anything on it.  Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  It might not be scientific and I'm just a layman, but if you put sugar on your tongue and rub it around it will get real sore.  Put some coconut oil on there and rub it around it will feel better.  So my opinion is that fat/cholesterol didn't cause the inflammation in the arteries, it's responding to it to fix it.

Dr. Davis is just one man with an opinion too.  He blogs those current thoughts.  They may change.  This site isn't a medical text book (and I still wouldn't 100% trust it if it were).  We can take away from him what we want to learn and believe.  We can read other people's opinions.  We can discuss; don't have to agree.  Knowledge only advances through disagreement.

If you want to attack my religion, fine by me.  Only tells me you have nothing to dispute my ideas with so you grasp at anything discrediting instead.  Why not call me fatty or dumb?  Bet you would think Albert Einstein as a good scientist but how many discredited him in their minds because he was weird or had strange hair.  Believe what you want to believe but think for yourself.

Well, I don't think Dr Davis was recommmending that you eat the entire 8 egg casserole at one sitting! Here's a link to eggs as it relates to heart disease.  You will need to copy and paste the link into your browser.  Full PDF available for free...
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/23/suppl_6/596S

Thanks for the link.  I got stuck on this part:
"However, population-based studies examining the association between egg consumption and serum cholesterol levels show either no association, or, paradoxically, an inverse association"

Jonathan, Jonathan. Your logic beggars belief. Now that you mention Einstein, he once said that there are two things that are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and that he wasn't sure about the universe.

Is it possible to have this troll who calls himself "anonymous" removed?
He's here only to stirr up trouble.

Jonathan, I'm not being argumentative, This is a serious inquiry. I learn a lot from this blog but I also learn a lot from sites and blogs that are in complete opposition, I take from everything. Personally the more information I get from all sides the more I end up middle of the road on my own path.

You said:
Sat fat consumption doesn't fix the pattern directly. It allows for less calories from carbs which helps fix the pattern.

Is this because the more fat/sat fat you consume the more satiated you become and it's just less room for carbs due to lack of hunger? If so then that doesn't work for everyone. I am at a good weight....maybe even thin...but I have a huge appetite. A person like me would could eat loads of sat fat and still consume a lot of carbs. What about a huge plate of pasta smothered in high fat meat sauce? Finish that meal with Italian pastries (nice cannolis) and fruit and I'd say that's a high fat and high carb disaster. The fat in that meal doesn't squeeze out the carbs then....does it?

I don't buy into the whole saturated fat nonsense and personally don't run and hide from saturated fat. I drink whole fat milk, I have Olive oil, I don't buy non fat products etc but at the same time I don't go crazy eating too much either. What is too much? I don't know but I just try not to get too crazy. But I also don't consume any processed refined carbs. No bread, wheat or sugar, no flour. Actually it would be hard for me to think of a food I eat that even has an ingredient label!! But I do eat brown rice and quinoa. Not huge amounts, but I eat them.

Thanks

Awesome.  Anonymous called me stupid.  

Tommy, I'm not meaning to attack you either.  I think you a prime example of why the government has no business giving dietary guidelines.  No one diet plan can fit 100% of the people.  You have to do what works for you.
What I meant is that if you drop calories in carbs you'll replace them in protein and fat.  I simply choose to eat more sat and the rest in mono and not increase protein.  The first time I tried Atkins I just focused on lowering carbs and I didn't make it too long.  This time around, I focused on low to now carb and increasing natural sat fat and trying to keep protein moderate.  I feel great now and have for the last 8 months.
Your high metabolism is interesting.  It's like you are very active athlete who may need some extra carbs to keep going.  Not saying grains are a good place to get them.  I would be curious how active you really are and I would be curious what a 70-80% fat content over a few weeks would do for your hunger (say your body releases insulin faster than others to protein or something).  Have you tried checking your blood sugar on an interval for a day?  Once my sugar stabilized (too me a couple of months to get real stable) my hunger when way down.  I guess I'm just mentally stuck on insulin being the normal culprit for messing with fat and sugar storage/usage and ultimately hunger causing.  I guess I should add my idea of high fat would be a day like: 4 eggs and bacon for breakfast and a cup of coffee with heavy cream, a salad with olive oil or left over pork chops or 4 hotdogs or fasting for lunch, and an untrimmed 7-9oz steak with butter on top and broccoli or asparagus sauteed in butter/coconut oil for supper.  I feel extra hungry sometimes and will have some cheese or more steak or something at supper.  I also try to vary the amount I eat like fasting some days and gorging others.  Eating carbs makes me more and more hungry (sometime delayed an hour); fat at the least doesn't make me more hungry.
Just my observations of what is working for me.

Here's the funny thing. If not for reading things on the internet I'd probably keep going thinking I was doing fine. I mean, basically I am. My weight is excellent. My bodyfat is good. I feel good, I'm in shape. My bloodwork is good and all is well. I could just leave it at that and keep going but the internet leaves me with questions all the time.  You know, I can get someone looking to lose weight and probably ask them "how they would like to do it." "Do you like carbs? There is a site that is very successful in their members losing weight consuming high carbs (Matt Stone). Do you like meat? There is a site that has huge numbers of followers losing weight eating lots of meat and animal fat (Mark Sisson). Do you like low fat? there are low fat diets that some swear by also.  How about high protein? (Michael Eades), What about traditional and middle road? (Sally Fallon)."
Then you have Atkins and like minded and McDougal and like minded. Everyone has followers who claim all the same beifits as the next guy on the opposite end. Weight loss, better numbers in bloodwork, more energy, less cavities, no joint aches and on and on.

There really are a lot of choices out there and a lot of conflicting information. I think my worst move was to gain a little knowledge...lol.

Thanks...interesting info.

I for one eat LOTS of saturated fat and my labs are all the proof I need to know they don't cause inflammation.  In fat, they definitely seem to lower it.  I don't follow anything on blind faith. "The proof is in the pudding".  And I dear friends, have never been healthier in my life.  Nor has my cholesterol and inflammation been lower.  Nay say all you want, but try it out and have a good hard look at your labs for the proof you need.

Thank you, Dr. Davis for reposting this so we can all view it more easily.

Here is the list of over 20 publications about iodine consumption, trials, findings etc. the normal intake may be between 6 to 12.5 mg. it depends on the individual. when i started taking iodine, i took 50 mg a day for a week before i felt any uneasiness. now one drop of lugol's iodine every second day and i can feel it. according to these studies some vitamins along with iodine play major role in coping with iodine.  
http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Research_I.shtml

What's your opinion of potassium salt?  I've been using an iodized mixture of sodium and potassium chloride lately, and it seems to be working well.

I use sea salt that contains iodine naturally.  I also eat a little seaweed a couple of times a week.  Is this sufficient?  Who knows, I guess.  I definitely do not have any trace of a goiter.  I eat fish, too, and live on the East Coast, so I assume I'm okay.

The full text of the article "Iodine: deficiency and therapeutic considerations" (Altern Med Rev 13 (2): 116–27. PMID 18590348) published last year can be found here.

From that article: "The safety of therapeutic doses of iodine above the established safe upper limit of 1 mg is evident in the lack of toxicity in the Japanese population that consumes 25 times the median intake of iodine consumption in the United States. Japan’s population suffers no demonstrable increased incidence of autoimmune thyroiditis or hypothyroidism."

StephenB

This is the second time in a week the volatility of iodine has come to my attention.  I'm wondering now about the iodine content in the dried kelp and sea vegetable I have in my cupboards.  Anyone have any idea how stable that iodine is?

What do you reckon about "Celtic" salt (unprocessed sea salt)? I know there's a lot of websites out there granting it near-magical health properties, about which I am extremely skeptical, however it does have a notable amount of minerals in it (about 8% I believe) whereas regular salt is refined to 99.99% purity. So it seems if you switched to using that kind of salt in your diet (including avoiding processed food which uses pure salt) it may have some benefit. It does contain iodine naturally, too.

I'm taking Lugol's solution too, about 10 drops a day. My iodine was measured at "<1" by the lab four months ago.

Australian readers should note that Australian soil has an extremely low iodine content (it's official), so our food is unlikely to be a source of pretty much any iodine at all. A case where being a "localvore" won't help your health.

I take Iosol iodine, which I get from iherb.com for $12 a bottle (http://bit.ly/6qLtp). Each drop has 1,830 mcg of iodine, and there are over 600 drops per bottle. Great price, and seems to be working well for me. My feet aren't nearly as cold as they used to be, and my usually low morning temperature has started increasing a bit, too.

My sense is that goiter is the least of the problems with iodine deficiency.  Kris has pointed to the optimox link.  Optimox manufactures Iodoral which is iodine in convenient tablet form.  The liquid form, Lugol's Solution is available here: http://www.jcrows.com/iodine.html

My sister began taking iodine supplements last year at my suggestion.  She had experienced 5 years of bad mammograms so she was delighted to have a flawless mammogram three months after starting iodine.  It seems that iodine is so important to the baby that breasts concentrate iodine as well as thyroid glands.  Fibrocystic breast disease seems to be the equivalent of goiter in breast tissue.

She also reports better sleep, fresh moist skin, quicker reactions, more energy and most recently, iodine applied to poison ivy stopped the itch.  

Dr Flechas reports here, http://iodine4health.com/disease/diabetes/flechas_diabetes.htm, that half of his diabetic patients are no longer diabetic when they get enough iodine.  The other half improve, needing less medication.  It seems to me that iodine should be the first step in treating diabetes of either form.

Iodine deficiency is reported to be the number one preventable cause of mental retardation in the world.  Looking around, goiter is not the most visible evidence of iodine deficiency.

Having read the papers at Optimox and others, iodine looks to be under appreciated and quite valuable.

I cut out all salt from my 'nutritarian'-style diet a few weeks ago.  But as a result of reading this blog, I started taking 4 kelp tablets a day at about the same time. I'm thinking of taking even more tablets to try to help increase my low (according to the endocrinologists and this blog, not my doctor) thyroid numbers.

I rarely use salt except when I make popcorn.  I do occasionally take an Iodoral and sometimes add a drop of aquarium Lugols iodine in my 7 gallon water jugs of thermal spring water.

When I run in 90°+ weather I do take salt.  So far, at age 70, no goiter.

You might want to let Michael Bloomberg know that cutting back on salt will increase iodine deficiency.  His health commissioner, Thomas Frieden, was picked to head the CDC.

Remember to reduce bromine exposure which competes with iodine.

Thanks for conducting the poll - very interesting.
We use kosher and sea salt at home - about a year ago, this late realization (regarding iodine) led me to a bit of a panic, as my pregnant wife was nearing full term...  I was especially worried because I had been all along encouraging heavy broccoli consumption as well, and brassica vegetables are known to have goitrogenic properties (as do many other types of plants).  I then learned she was taking a multi-supplement that contained a fair amount of iodine. Whew.  Our 10 month old is doing great now, fortunately.   
We consume a fair amount of garlic and seafood as well, though I don't really know what the variance is when it comes to garlic's iodine content - presumably it depends quite a bit on the soil and water supply (Apparently, California garlic and broccoli assimilate a fair amount of selenium from the water used for irrigation, for instance).

k1wuk,

I'd love ot know if you have any more info on iodine and breast health.

I checked the Lo-Salt I've been using since I decided I might not be getting enough potassium (a good guess as electrolytes came back spot on) and realise it is NOT iodised.

Not a problem personally I suspect as I eat plenty of fish and shellfish but I'm now trialling various seaweeds, sea vegetables etc. Even without a deficiency these are tasty!

Goiter is not common in the UK AFAIK, nowhere near as common as hypothyroid. However when young my father was hyperthyroid, which damaged his heart before being treated. Didn't stop the tough old goat from living into his eighties, but in retrospect I believe he may well have become hypothyroid in later life as a result of the operation (not diagnosed), and probably also became Type 2 (not diagnosed)in his last years.

Probably wouldn't have lengthened his life but diagnosis and treatment would certainly have improved the quality a lot. All power to you for continuing your posts on these issues. They will suffice until Endocrine System SP1 is released.

Anna

Here are few links to dr. david derry's answer to patients(in case you haven't found it your self). My wife had painted lugol's iodine externally for breast lumps, with unbelievable results only after applying it twice. she was having hard time sleeping on one side. her mother passed away few years ago with Breast cancer. just being extra careful now.
http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl1a.htm

http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl2a.htm

My endo told me to avoid iodine because it exacerbates goiter in hypothyroid.  Also, those of you who know nursing mothers, PLEASE be aware of this risk:

from pubmed:
1: Hypothyroidism in a breast-fed preterm infant resulting from maternal topical iodine exposure.
Smith VC, Svoren BM, Wolfsdorf JI.
Pediatr. 2006 Oct;149(4):566-7.
PMID: 17011335 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2: Transient hypothyroidism in a breastfed infant after maternal use of iodoform gauze.
L'Italien A, Starceski PJ, Dixit NM.
J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Apr;17(4):665-7.
PMID: 15198299 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3: Early childhood caries: an overview with reference to our experience in California.
DenBesten P, Berkowitz R.
J Calif Dent Assoc. 2003 Feb;31(2):139-43. Review.
PMID: 12636318 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Transient neonatal hypothyroidism during breastfeeding after post-natal maternal topical iodine treatment.
Casteels K, Pünt S, Brämswig J.
Eur J Pediatr. 2000 Sep;159(9):716-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 11014479 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5: [Iodine antiseptics are not harmless]
Arena Ansotegui J, Emparanza Knörr JI.
An Esp Pediatr. 2000 Jul;53(1):25-9. Review. Spanish.
PMID: 10998400 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6: The newborn should be protected from dangerous transient induced hypothyroidism.
López-Sastre JB, Rivas-Crespo MF.
Acta Paediatr. 1995 Oct;84(10):1211. No abstract available.
PMID: 8563243 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

7: [Thyroid function disturbances in an infant following maternal topical use of polydine]
Rakover Y, Adar H.
Harefuah. 1989 May 10; 116(10):527-9. Hebrew.
PMID: 2792927 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

8: Topical iodine, breastfeeding, and neonatal hypothyroidism.
Delange F, Chanoine JP, Abrassart C, Bourdoux P.
Arch Dis Child. 1988 Jan;63(1):106-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 3348642 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Leslie.
here is another study from the same site search. i just copied the whole paragraph.

1: Public Health Nutr. 2007 Dec;10(12A):1600-1.Click here to read Links
    Iodine nutrition of pregnant and lactating women in Hong Kong, where intake is of borderline sufficiency.
    Kung AW.

    Department of Medicine, The University of Hong Kong, Queen Mary Hospital, Hong Kong SAR, China.

    OBJECTIVE: To describe the iodine nutrition of pregnant and lactating women in Hong Kong, where intake is of borderline sufficiency.DESIGN: Review of cross-sectional and prospective studies.SETTING: China, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR).SUBJECTS: Pregnant and lactating women.RESULTS: Studies of pregnant women in Hong Kong SAR have revealed an increase in the urinary iodine (UI) concentration as pregnancy advances. A significant percentage of women had a sub-normal serum thyroid hormone concentration at full term. Although iodine is concentrated by the mammary gland, 19% of all mothers had low iodine concentrations in their breast milk. The moderate correlation between the concentrations of iodine in breast milk and urine suggests that an adequate maternal urinary iodine concentration cannot reliably indicate that an infant is getting enough iodine in breast milk. Therefore, some breast-fed infants may still be at risk of low iodine intake, and additional iodine supplements, other than salt iodisation, would be warranted in this population.CONCLUSIONS: The currently recommended intake of iodine through universal salt iodisation may not be adequate for pregnant and lactating women, and supplementation during pregnancy and lactation should be further considered in light of the latest recommendations.

here is another one.

1: J Am Coll Nutr. 2004 Apr;23(2):97-101.Click here to read Links
    Maternal thiocyanate and thyroid status during breast-feeding.
    Dorea JG.

    Faculdade de Ciências da Saúde, Universidade de Brasília, Brasília, Brazil.

    Cyanogenic glucosides are naturally present in plant foods especially in staple foods (cassava) consumed by millions of people in tropical countries. Most traditional processing methods are effective in detoxifying such goitrogens to safe levels of consumption. Nevertheless, residual cyanide (CN) is rapidly metabolized to thiocyanate (SCN) by existing metabolic pathways. There are concerns that goitrogens may reach the nursing infants through breast feeding or cow's milk based formulas. SCN adverse effects are commonly observed in relation to cigarette smoking. Breast-feeding is effective in protecting infants from anti-thyroid effects of eventual or habitual maternal exposure to CN exposure in food (cassava) or recreation habits (cigarette smoking). SCN goitrogenic effects occur secondary to iodine deficiency in special circumstances of high consumption of incomplete detoxified cassava and insufficient protein intake. Only during inadequate protein nutrition can SCN aggravate endemic iodine-deficient disorders (IDD).

More and more one reads about these, more and more it becomes a muddy and confusing subject.
despite the fact that we have all sorts of studies and experts to educate people, all it takes is few drug profit driven experts studies to confuse the less money spending route.
Please read this
"The Wolff-Chaikoff Effect"
"crying wolf".
http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-04/IOD_04.html
Please don't take me wrong. i am not trying to contradict the studies that you have posted here. i am merely trying to show as to what else is available out there.

The Safe and Effective Implementation of Orthoiodosupplementation In Medical Practice

This section had me laughing out loud. Much the same applies to the use of effective amounts of D3.
Medicoiodophobes suffer from: A) a split personality which results in iodophobia within the orthoiodosupplementation range previously used safely and successfully in medical practice and iodophylia for megadoses of iodide (up to 12 gm/day); B) double standards, which render those physicians intolerant to the minor side effects of the inorganic forms and extremely tolerant to the severe side effects of the radioactive and organic forms; C) amnesia pertaining to the inorganic, non-radioactive forms when making therapeutic decisions; D) confusion, attributing the severe side effects of organic iodine-containing drugs to inorganic iodine/iodide; and E) an altered state of consciousness, allowing doublethink, doublespeak, and contradictory logic to become acceptable. Although the factors involved in medical iodophobia are still unknown, decreased cognition seems involved. Since low iodine intake is associated with intellectual impairment, deficiency of this essential element cannot be ruled out, and if present, would create a self-perpetuating phenomenon. Needless to say, medical iodophobia is contagious and can be transmitted to patients and other physicians (iatrogenic iodophobia). Medical iodophobia will remain a syndrome until the causes are discovered and effective therapy implemented. It is very likely however, that medical iodophobia will eventually be classified as an iodine-deficiency disease.

My endo told me not to take iodine because he said living in the UK, it being an island, people here get enough iodine from their diets.

He also said that because I eat a lot of fish (once or twice per day) that gives me additional iodine.

He said some of his German patients take iodine against his wishes (must be a popular supplement among Germans), and if they are pregnant it's really bad for the fetus.

Anne

Fish.
according to Dr. david derry,"Fish of the great lakes still shows Goiter formation".
http://books.google.ca/books?id=PVWOyP68OMsC&pg=PP1&dq=dr+david+derry&client=firefox-a#PPA6,M1
So even fish's origin is important. apart from fluoride in the tooth paste and fluoride added municipal water which depletes us from iodine. never mind chlorine in the water and bromine in the food and many other goods around us, helps to deplete iodine.

I wonder about the huge amount of food that is imported into the UK from distant locations One can't assume enough iodine universally throughout the UK based on UK soil content.

Kris - you should eat sea fish and shell fish.

Anne,
Thank you for your advise.
now i am eating sea fish twice a week. but iodine is must for me. my mother's right side elbow and knee was in bad shape for 35 years. The knee joint was so bad that the joint would come off of it's position. we had to learn our to self to place it back. as usual, she went to many doctors but no help. she is vegetarian all her life. about six months ago she started applying lugol's iodine externally on the knee. she was applying religiously 3 times a day for 2 weeks on and one week off. at the end of the two weeks application, the knee would look like war zone. after about month and half, the knee starting to look like normal knee. now she is able to walk about mile and a half every day on the tread mill. she also been taking 3 drops a day internally too. i personally believe in more iodine than we can find in our the food.

Anna:
"Breast Cancer and Iodine" by Dr David M. Derry, Canada