Roger's near-miss CT angiogram experience

Heart Scan Blog reader, Roger, described his near-miss experience with CT coronary angiograms.

Hoping to obtain just a simple CT heart scan, he was bullied to get a CT coronary angiogram instead. Roger held strong and just asked for the test that we all should be having, a CT heart scan.


I posted yesterday that I was about to have my first CT heart scan...well, it was an interesting experience for reasons I coudn't possibly have anticipated. Dr. Davis has commented in the past on the confusion in the media about the difference between a CT calcium score scan, and a CT angiography, the latter requiring a far higher dose of radiation. I assumed this was a source of confusion only among patients and lay folks, but, lo and behold, I discovered today that doctors--or at least their helpers--can be just as confused.

Here's my story:

After checking in, I asked the receptionist to see if she had any information on whether my medical insurance was covering the scan. She called someone, and I heard her say over the phone, "He's here for a CT angiogram." At that point my ears perked up. I explained I wasn't here for a CT angiogram, only a regular CT scan. "Well, do you want to call your doctor and talk about this?" she asked. No, I said, I would like to ask one of their folks to verify exactly what test my doctor had ordered. As luck would have it, the technician was walking by at that point. "Is this a CT angiogram?" the receptionist asked. "No, it's just a CT calcium score scan" was the reply. But apparently the technician had been unclear herself, and had called my doctor just to verify. In other words, the "default" procedure they were accustomed to doing at this august Houston vascular clinic was a CT angiogram.

In fact, my appointment was even listed on their calendar as a "CT angiogram." For all I know, my insurance will be billed for the same. Later, during the procedure, the technician acted surprised I wasn't doing the "full test." I explained I had minimal risk factors (actually only one, an HDL of 34 a couple of years ago, which has since been raised to 50 partly as a result of taking advice from this site), but that my doctor was progressive (he is an MD for the Houston Astros) and thought it was a good idea since there is heart disease in my immediate family. My doctor did indeed prescribe only a CT calcium score scan, but it seems to have been an order that this clinic, at least, wasn't all that used to seeing.

So, I guess the message is: we have a lot of educating to do. Had I not been a faithful reader of these pages, I certainly wouldn't have known what kind of test I was about to get, or what questions to ask!

As for the heart scan itself, a piece of cake. If you can hold your breath, you can take this test. Just be sure it is the right one!



Why the "push" towards CT coronary angiograms and not "just" a CT heart scan? Well, I know it's shocking but it's . . . money!

CT coronary angiograms yield around $1800-$4000 per test. CT heart scans yield somewhere around $200. Though the scan center support staff might not care too much about the money themselves, their administrators likely make the cost distinctions clear to them.

Another reason: Most scan center staff, ironically, don't understand what a heart scan means, nor do they understand how it might serve to launch a program of prevention. They do understand that severe blockage by CT angiogram "needs" to be stented or bypassed. So they push patients towards things they understand.

Nobody makes money from CT heart scans, just as nobody makes money from a mammogram. Heart scans also don't lead to heroic, "lifesaving" procedures. They just lead to this sleepy, unexciting, inexpensive thing called prevention.

Comments (13) -

  • Mark K. Sprengel

    6/28/2009 11:35:08 AM |

    I had a friend that recently went for a heart scan. He said his score was zero. Is that possible?

  • Anonymous

    6/28/2009 4:31:52 PM |

    I hope the USA can see its way to some sort of national standards for State run medicare. As recent events show, if you have the will, the money will be found.

    I live in Ontario, Canada and only had to ask my primary care physician in order to get a CT angiogram (did not know about the Calcium score at the time) It's cost is covered under our social medicine program OHIP.

    A new study shows 30% drop in mortality from CD

    http://www.theheart.org/article/980589.do

  • Anna

    6/28/2009 5:30:18 PM |

    Sure it is.  My score was 0.  That's despite doing quite a bit in direct opposition to the AHA recommended dietary advice:

    -no wheat/gluten at all (whole or refined)
    -very few, if any grains (whole or refined)
    -very low sugar and starch consumption (low carb)
    -pastured red meat several times a week (bison, beef, or pork)  with normal ferritin level
    -high saturated fat consumption (grassfed butter, coconut oil, home-render lard)
    -whole fat dairy (incl raw whole milk and raw milk aged cheese)
    -no attempt to artificially increase fiber, though there's probably a fair amount of fiber in the ample fresh non-starchy veggies I consume
    -2 to 3 "backyard" eggs cooked in ample butter nearly daily for breakfast

  • fred88

    6/28/2009 7:04:06 PM |

    i am 72 years old my calcium score is zero.2 yrs ago i was diagnosed with angina.i took the linus pauling protocol and cured my heart disease.on march 20th 2009 i had a calcium score scan and astounded my cardiologist as my arteries were completely cleared.vitamin c and amino acid is cheap and available. no money in it for doctors.discredited by medical profession.

  • Jim the Guacamole Diet guy

    6/29/2009 5:54:45 AM |

    "Why the "push" towards CT coronary angiograms and not "just" a CT heart scan? Well, I know it's shocking but it's . . . money!"

    No, surely not.

  • billye

    6/29/2009 11:12:29 AM |

    Rogers experience brought back an unpleasant near miss CT Angiogram memory of an episode that I had while being in the hospital 5 years ago. I was  brought in with congestive heart failure-EF 20/25,  Now Don't think you are soon to lose a faithful reader, my EF is now 45/50, due to Aranesp injections, that I am doing exceptionally well on.  My anemia is now under fabulous control.
    But, I digress, one day while in the hospital a beautiful young lady with long flowing hair wearing a white coat and stethoscope came in to see me and identified her self as the cardiologist assistant. She quickly started to promote me to have an angiogram.  I refused. The hospital cardiologist came to see me and I told him not to send me any more sales reps. (he must have learned this technique from big Pharma with all their beautiful drug sales reps). I never did have that apparently unnecessary needless invasive procedure done.  Guess what?, I lived to tell the story.

  • Jim, Guacamole Diet

    6/29/2009 1:03:19 PM |

    One morning last year, I drank way too much strong tea. A few hours later, I had chest pains and tachycardia. I had forgotten about the tea, which with hindsight  was the obvious cause, and I went to an emergency room.

    By the time I got there, the pain had gone, and I should never have stepped into the ER waiting room.

    As soon as they got their hands on me, they wouldn't let me go, claiming that insurance wouldn't pay if I left against doctors' orders. They quickly ran up any thousands of dollars of expensive tests, all of which came back fine.

    They were very unhappy that I refused a coronary artery stent.

    My ejection fraction was 65.

  • Anna

    6/29/2009 6:09:24 PM |

    Anonymous in Canada,

    "A new study shows 30% drop in mortality from CD"

    Yes, modern medicine "saves" more people all the time.  

    But is the *incidence" of CD dropping? or is medicine just getting better at treatment.  I want to avoid CD, not just be saved from it.

    I used to be a strong believer that the US needed a universal medical care system similar to Canada and the UK.  Now that I have had a closer look at the UK's system over the last 14 years (in-laws are there) and have experienced the profound lack of primary prevention under a US HMO system (healthcare rationing), I'm not-so-sure.  

    Sure, we are a rich nation and we should be able to afford decent healthcare for everyone.  The current system is for haves and have-nots with the in-betweens really getting pinched.  And furthermore, the haves don't get nearly the quality of care that they pay through the nose for anyway (though many don't realize it).  

    But I can't see how turning over the decisions to government is going to be any better than it has been to turn over decisions to HMP insurance companies and accountants.  In fact, it could get worse.  Especially since government has turned into the handmaiden for special interests.  As much as I think it should happen, I have a hard time getting behind the proposals.  Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

  • Anonymous

    6/30/2009 12:51:29 AM |

    ok fred88, you almost got me excited....until I saw the oral EDTA chelation.... I'm calling BS by association

  • Kent

    6/30/2009 1:54:06 AM |

    Fred,

    I've heard a mixture of reports on the Pauling protocol with varied success. Can you give a little more detail as to how much vitaming C, L-Lysine, etc. you took per day at what intervals, and the time duration you believe it took for the protocol to do it's job?

    Thanks,
    Kent

  • TedHutchinson

    6/30/2009 8:39:34 AM |

    Pauling Protocol in PDF format
    take note of this section
    The half-life of vitamin C in the bloodstream is 30 minutes.  
    Linus Pauling advised taking vitamin C throughout the day in divided doses. The Hickey/Roberts Dynamic Flow theory predicts that taking vitamin C  every four hours will produce the highest sustained blood concentrations. Take more before bedtime.

    I use a time release formulation

  • buy jeans

    11/3/2010 8:25:24 PM |

    CT coronary angiograms yield around $1800-$4000 per test. CT heart scans yield somewhere around $200. Though the scan center support staff might not care too much about the money themselves, their administrators likely make the cost distinctions clear to them.

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Interview with world heart scan authority, Dr. John Rumberger

Interview with world heart scan authority, Dr. John Rumberger












Dr. John Rumberger has, from its start, been a good friend of the Track Your Plaque program.

We are very proud to have his friendship. Dr. Rumberger is not only a world-renowned scientist in the world of cardiac imaging and heart scanning, but also a humanitarian and gentleman. From the very first day I met Dr. Rumberger many years ago, when he answered my many silly and naive questions about heart scans, I came to appreciate his deep and genuine interest in improving the world of heart disease detection.

I tracked Dr. Rumberger down from his busy schedule, now on a new project at the Princeton Longevity Center in Princeton, New Jersey.




TYP: Dr. Rumberger, we understand that your career has taken a new direction. Can you tell us about your current project?

Dr. Rumberger: I have not really taken a new direction, but further expanded on my opportunities.

I remain Medical Director of PrevaHealth Wellness Diagnostic Center (formerly Healthwise) in Columbus, Ohio. At that center, we see patients referred by their doctors for further refinement in cardiac risk stratification using heart and body scanning. However, by only doing scans alone there are limited opportunities for me to react in a meaningful way with the individual patients and thus I miss opportunities to do direct one-on-one teaching.

Currently, I spend most of my time in Princeton, NJ as Director of Cardiac Imaging for the Princeton Longevity Center. At the PLC, we perform comprehensive medical examinations along with screening CT scans, blood work, fitness and diet consultation to affect a more thorough one-on-one experience. Each patient then receives a comprehensive de-briefing.

In addition, since I have been involved with cardiac CT for now nearly 24 years, the PLC also affords me an opportunity to develop a CT coronary angiography training program for cardiologists and radiologists (www.cardiaccta.us). Together, these new efforts are merely an extension of my interests in prevention, patient care, and teaching.



TYP: Based on your book, The Way Diet, we understand that you advocate gravitating away from processed foods and incorporating more nuts, monounsaturated oils, lean proteins like fish, and a reduction in processed carbohydrates. You’ve also been a proponent of the Mediterranean diet that demonstrated a dramatic reduction in cardiovascular events in the Lyon Heart Study.

Has your philosophy or practice regarding nutritional strategies evolved or changed in any way since your book was published?

Dr. Rumberger: No, the strategies put forward in The Way Diet have, if anything, been reinforced by further and further research in selecting foods that are naturally high in anti-oxidants with lean sources of protein and reduced intake of processed sugar-containing preparations. The book, however, is what I call a ‘philosophy’ book which looks at three major aspects: proper diet, adequate exercise, and stress management. I also include some recipes which follow the dietary plans, but are done using ingredients that are commonly found in the average home.



TYP: We regard you as the source of much of the wisdom in heart scanning as the basis for early heart disease detection. Much of the original and subsequent scientific data, in fact, bears your name. Can you touch on some of the new directions your research has taken over the past couple of years?

Dr. Rumberger: We have come a long way from the beginning and there is a long way to go to get this incorporated into routine preventive care in the United States.

The most recent research has provided not so much more information as continuing to reinforce the old research. As I always say: if your research continues to show the same thing, then maybe there is a clear pattern here! The biggest challenge is getting this message into the mainstream and also trying to get cardiologists (and internists and, in fact, the general public) away from ‘stenosis’ detection to define the real cause of heart attacks (plaque) and into ‘plaque detection.’ This is where basic heart scanning has the greatest potential to reduce the expanding burden of heart disease.

You may be aware of our SHAPE initiave in which an international group of cardiologists and scientists have advocated getting a heart scan FIRST and then, if abnormal, checking your cholesterol values; rather than using cholesterol (which is valuable, but highly variable in predictive power) to determine who needs medications or further testing. The heart scan can define the current level of plaque and THEN you can determine what to do about it. [See the Track Your Plaque report on the release of the Shape Guidelines at SHAPE Guidelines]



TYP: We understand that you are performing CT coronary angiography in your center. What are your thoughts on the role of CTA in 1) screening for coronary disease, and 2) its role in the diagnostic process?

Dr. Rumberger: CT coronary angiography (CTA) is an incredible method to really define the extent of disease, beyond just coronary calcium. Its role is most appropriate in ruling OUT a significant ‘stenosis’ while really defining the absence or presence (and thus ‘how much’) of plaque. It is the ultimate ‘plaque detector’. CTA is best used in patients who have some symptoms, but in whom the clinician feels may NOT have clear cardiac chest pain. By risk-stratifying using CTA, we also gain information about heart size, heart function, whether there is prior heart damage, as well as other important information. This then becomes a very universal means to risk-stratifying individuals.



TYP: Thanks for your wonderful insights, Dr. Rumberger! We look forward to hearing about your future projects and research directions.





About John Rumberger, PhD, MD:

Dr. Rumberger is among the world's leading authorities on cardiac and vascular imaging using EBT and CT Scanning. Dr. Rumberger was among the first to pioneer the use of new CT technologies for heart scanning. He currently serves as Director of Cardiac Imaging at the Princeton Longevity Center, Princeton, NJ.

Dr. Rumberger is formerly Professor of Medicine and Consultant in the Department of Cardiovascular Diseases at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Dr. Rumberger received his doctorate in engineering from The Ohio State University in 1976 and graduated from the University of Miami School of Medicine in 1978.

During his over 20 year career as a clinician, educator, and researcher, Dr. Rumberger has published nearly 500 scientific papers and book chapters. He has lectured worldwide on EBT, early heart disease diagnosis, and wellness. He is an Established Investigator of the American Heart Association and a Founding Member of the International Society of Atherosclerosis Imaging. Dr Rumberger is an active Reviewer for the Journal of the American Medical Association, Archives of Internal Medicine, and the New England Journal of Medicine.

Comments (1) -

  • buy jeans

    11/3/2010 6:46:21 PM |

    In addition, since I have been involved with cardiac CT for now nearly 24 years, the PLC also affords me an opportunity to develop a CT coronary angiography training program for cardiologists and radiologists (www.cardiaccta.us). Together, these new efforts are merely an extension of my interests in prevention, patient care, and teaching.

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